Zp 24/96
A
Ability to play 24bit/96 files (like the competition: slimdevices transporter)
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Userlevel 2
I've owned my Sonos system for several years. I'm not active on the forums, but every few months I catch up on this thread to see if Sonos are finally going to support HiRes. I've always been happy with my Sonos system from day one - HiRes support is the only upgrade I have been waiting for.
I have recommended Sonos to a lot of friends. They are impressed when they see my system in operation, they are convinced by the obvious benefits of wireless music streaming, but ultimately they don't buy Sonos.
I know someone who has tried a Project Streambox but found it a bit buggy. He is now exploring the dedicated silent PC route.
Another went for the Transporter.
But nowadays, they mostly are buying the Touch. When I ask them why, they say its because of support for HiRes. They have seen the HiRes files available for download, they are interested in sound quality, and they want to try them. Also in several cases they have digitised their vinyl at 24/96 and want to access those files. They really couldn't give a flying fig about ABX testing or double-blind testing. When they bought their amps and their speakers, the salesman didn't insist that they should perform DBT before allowing them to spend their money on what they wanted.
Of course they grumble about the software updates, having to roll back to the previous version, and re-scan the data-base, which apparently takes hours.
I know I could never live with that hassle. But they don't ever re-consider. For them the Sonos is simply missing a feature that is on their checklist, so it is discounted.
I don't know what plans Sonos has for HiRes support. But I think it is lucky that no serious competitor has emerged. If the Touch gets sorted out, or a new product comes along with Sonos features plus HiRes support, it will be hard for Sonos to compete.
OK, so my sample of friends, acquaintances, people I know through forums is small and unscientific. But it is my experience that lack of HiRes support is costing Sonos sales.
I have recommended Sonos to a lot of friends. They are impressed when they see my system in operation, they are convinced by the obvious benefits of wireless music streaming, but ultimately they don't buy Sonos.
I know someone who has tried a Project Streambox but found it a bit buggy. He is now exploring the dedicated silent PC route.
Another went for the Transporter.
But nowadays, they mostly are buying the Touch. When I ask them why, they say its because of support for HiRes. They have seen the HiRes files available for download, they are interested in sound quality, and they want to try them. Also in several cases they have digitised their vinyl at 24/96 and want to access those files. They really couldn't give a flying fig about ABX testing or double-blind testing. When they bought their amps and their speakers, the salesman didn't insist that they should perform DBT before allowing them to spend their money on what they wanted.
Of course they grumble about the software updates, having to roll back to the previous version, and re-scan the data-base, which apparently takes hours.
I know I could never live with that hassle. But they don't ever re-consider. For them the Sonos is simply missing a feature that is on their checklist, so it is discounted.
I don't know what plans Sonos has for HiRes support. But I think it is lucky that no serious competitor has emerged. If the Touch gets sorted out, or a new product comes along with Sonos features plus HiRes support, it will be hard for Sonos to compete.
OK, so my sample of friends, acquaintances, people I know through forums is small and unscientific. But it is my experience that lack of HiRes support is costing Sonos sales.
Userlevel 2
I use a circle example when I try to explain this because most people have no clue about sinusoidal waves.
If I draw 2 points, and tell you to draw a circle that crosses those two points, you can only draw one circle. And adding a third point won't make the circle different.
As far as I know, it is the same thing with the define shape of a sinusoidale. I think most mistakes come from thos diagrams that shows the sinusoidale as steps, which is not the case.
If I draw 2 points, and tell you to draw a circle that crosses those two points, you can only draw one circle. And adding a third point won't make the circle different.
As far as I know, it is the same thing with the define shape of a sinusoidale. I think most mistakes come from thos diagrams that shows the sinusoidale as steps, which is not the case.
Userlevel 2
Seriously? That's like saying that a Michelin star restaurant shouldn't carry Dom Pérignon because TGI Friday's doesn't have it. This is where audiophiles are going and I THOUGHT Sonos wanted to cater to that market. I'd venture a guess that most people who blindly download whatever quality digital files iTunes is feeding them are just as happy to listen to said files on their phone with a crappy pair of earbuds...
Userlevel 1
Hi Majik,
just want to set the tone of this reply to "calm", so please don't think I'm attacking you. If anything I'm supporting you, hopefully.
Firstly, all of the user moderators on here are users first. Any opinion they give is as users. There opinion is worth no more or less than any other users in that respect.
I think the moderators here are in an unenviable position, one that Sonos are responsible for putting you in. I'm sure you feel that what you've said above is true, however the fact remains that for an *official* company forum, Sonos keep a VERY low profile here. Unlike many other official forums, who will generally place employees or other official representatives as moderators on their forums, Sonos don't do that, in fact they rarely respond at all, apart from in some cases of technical support.
What that means is you guys who have the word "moderator" under your usernames become, rightly or wrongly, the de facto Sonos representatives here, you clearly are in a position of authority that the rest of us aren't, so, whether you want it or not, when you guys say something people pay more attention and when you argue yay or nay on a subject people believe, again, rightly or wrongly, that you have some additional insight into the workings of the company (which I don't believe you do, correct me if I'm wrong).
So when people ask for a feature to be added and you or one of the other mods argue against it (or in one case state, quite categorically, that nobody can hear the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit audio anyway, so there's no point supporting hires, I don't think that was you though), people are going to take it as Gospel, because they have no other source from the company themselves and they have no one else to target their frustration at, so you get it.
Like I said, I think you're in a very unenviable position, you are, for all intents and purposes, representing Sonos here, because they won't represent themselves, but you have no official info to present to the rest of us and no real responsibility but you are the only conduit for people to vent at.
Furthermore it doesn't help that Sonos absolutely refuse to comment on future development at all. I understand the reasons for it and on the whole I think it's a good thing but, in a case such as this, when people are repeatedly asking for a feature to be added the stony silence from Sonos is going to make those people feel like they aren't being listened to, so once again they round on you as the only visible point of contact with the company. Even the occasional acknowledgement of "Yes, we're listening." would go some way to mollify some feelings.
I don't know what the answer is to that though but I do know one thing, I wouldn't want to be a mod here, the phrase "sacrificial lamb" springs to mind...
But you do a great job here and rarely get thanked for it, so, from me, thank you!
just want to set the tone of this reply to "calm", so please don't think I'm attacking you. If anything I'm supporting you, hopefully.
I think the moderators here are in an unenviable position, one that Sonos are responsible for putting you in. I'm sure you feel that what you've said above is true, however the fact remains that for an *official* company forum, Sonos keep a VERY low profile here. Unlike many other official forums, who will generally place employees or other official representatives as moderators on their forums, Sonos don't do that, in fact they rarely respond at all, apart from in some cases of technical support.
What that means is you guys who have the word "moderator" under your usernames become, rightly or wrongly, the de facto Sonos representatives here, you clearly are in a position of authority that the rest of us aren't, so, whether you want it or not, when you guys say something people pay more attention and when you argue yay or nay on a subject people believe, again, rightly or wrongly, that you have some additional insight into the workings of the company (which I don't believe you do, correct me if I'm wrong).
So when people ask for a feature to be added and you or one of the other mods argue against it (or in one case state, quite categorically, that nobody can hear the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit audio anyway, so there's no point supporting hires, I don't think that was you though), people are going to take it as Gospel, because they have no other source from the company themselves and they have no one else to target their frustration at, so you get it.
Like I said, I think you're in a very unenviable position, you are, for all intents and purposes, representing Sonos here, because they won't represent themselves, but you have no official info to present to the rest of us and no real responsibility but you are the only conduit for people to vent at.
Furthermore it doesn't help that Sonos absolutely refuse to comment on future development at all. I understand the reasons for it and on the whole I think it's a good thing but, in a case such as this, when people are repeatedly asking for a feature to be added the stony silence from Sonos is going to make those people feel like they aren't being listened to, so once again they round on you as the only visible point of contact with the company. Even the occasional acknowledgement of "Yes, we're listening." would go some way to mollify some feelings.
I don't know what the answer is to that though but I do know one thing, I wouldn't want to be a mod here, the phrase "sacrificial lamb" springs to mind...
But you do a great job here and rarely get thanked for it, so, from me, thank you!
Userlevel 2
Its a funny thing when people discuss on such forums with great intensity. I think it should be of note that the adding of 24/96 or 24/192 will increase compatabilty to what is now being offered in the realm of playback. You cant say it isnt better and you cant say it is. The reason is the same for cd. Some cd's are recorded badly some very well, this plays on the sound quality and so doesnt make sense to be argued. This is just one point of many i can make that each individual music track album fluctuates in quality. If science offers this understanding with blind test/ double blond tests currently in regards to peer review this is what is current with science as best as we know. It doesnt mean it is an absolute truth it can also not be dismissed frivously. For a company if it is inline with selling more units and meeting demands then it should be a consideration. why dont sonos poll it? Obviously sonos is a multiroom streaming service that has incredible software and control, there is no other system like it. Is there no way the software could be sold to be customised to computers and the like to be upgraded to devices that can handle 24/96-192 respectively? without yhe implication for its units to do so?
This would mean you satisfy both markets without confusion and unit misunderstanding if its software based. Sell it on cd for x units and im sure you will get sales. Still keeping the sonos units as they are now. Does that make sense? or is someone going to shout at me. Not having a solution will be a deciding factor for more and more people at a consumer level i hear this a lot. Thanks
This would mean you satisfy both markets without confusion and unit misunderstanding if its software based. Sell it on cd for x units and im sure you will get sales. Still keeping the sonos units as they are now. Does that make sense? or is someone going to shout at me. Not having a solution will be a deciding factor for more and more people at a consumer level i hear this a lot. Thanks
You do not achieve "higher resolution" by using higher sampling rates. Since the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem definitively states that a sound wave can be perfectly reconstructed by sampling at a rate 2x the highest frequency, the only thing you achieve by increasing the sampling frequency is increasing the frequency range of the sound. Period.
Ignore the "jaggies" representation that you see in audio magazines, where the "jaggies" approach a smoother curve as you increase the sampling rate. This is a gross misrepresentation of the actual process. There is no "increase the samples and you get a better copy of the sound" process going on here. That is bunk invented by the ignorant and the snake oil peddlers. The actual science is quite different.
bluefooted,
I don't think that SONOS is or ever was attempting to capture the audiophile market. While very noisy, the audiophile market is not huge. The lifetime earnings of many of the very successful audiophile companies is a fraction of the annual earnings of SONOS.
Really, at this point 24/192 is a "me too" resolution. 24/384 or 32/384 used in the studios is more leading edge.
I don't think that SONOS is or ever was attempting to capture the audiophile market. While very noisy, the audiophile market is not huge. The lifetime earnings of many of the very successful audiophile companies is a fraction of the annual earnings of SONOS.
Really, at this point 24/192 is a "me too" resolution. 24/384 or 32/384 used in the studios is more leading edge.
Userlevel 2
whatever
The use of computers as substitutes for Sonos players has been discussed at length before. The general consensus is a PC is incapable of synchronized streaming due to limitations in the onboard timing. So Sonos is not just software, it also needs some pretty specialized hardware in order to do what it does.
See this thread for more:
PC or Mac Based Software Zone Player
PS - You also mentioned a poll. There is a poll here:
Hires support (take 2)
Basically what happened is audiophiles recruited non-Sonos owning hi-Rez fans to register and vote, thus skewing the results. Notice all the usernames with a single post (or worse yet, no posts at all) in the poll. I'm quite sure Sonos has done more accurate market research on the number of 24/96 users, and so far the results seem to be that they are not losing enough customers to be concerned. Of course that could change if the market changes.
See this thread for more:
PC or Mac Based Software Zone Player
PS - You also mentioned a poll. There is a poll here:
Hires support (take 2)
Basically what happened is audiophiles recruited non-Sonos owning hi-Rez fans to register and vote, thus skewing the results. Notice all the usernames with a single post (or worse yet, no posts at all) in the poll. I'm quite sure Sonos has done more accurate market research on the number of 24/96 users, and so far the results seem to be that they are not losing enough customers to be concerned. Of course that could change if the market changes.
Jean_Lavallee,
I'll agree that the usual squared off diagram is not very helpful, but I'm not sure that showing the cells having rounded tops would be more intuitive for the lay public (or quite a few engineers) either.
Implied, but never stated, is that, after the high frequency reconstruction artifacts are removed, there is nothing left except the sampled fundamental.
---
I don't understand your circle analogy. Obviously the two points will define the minimum circle diameter, but there are quite a number of circles that can share that same chord.
I'll agree that the usual squared off diagram is not very helpful, but I'm not sure that showing the cells having rounded tops would be more intuitive for the lay public (or quite a few engineers) either.
Implied, but never stated, is that, after the high frequency reconstruction artifacts are removed, there is nothing left except the sampled fundamental.
---
I don't understand your circle analogy. Obviously the two points will define the minimum circle diameter, but there are quite a number of circles that can share that same chord.
The OP stated that "24/96 is a must." I assume "a must" means Sonos must support it in order to survive. However, since 24/96 caters to a small, elite, and finicky market, then by very definition it is not "a must." If it were "a must" for a company to survive, then it would be available from a larger number of music sources. A better analogy would be why would anyone say it is "a must" for TGI Fridays to carry Dom Pérignon?
PS - I find it hilarious that a short time ago an unfounded rumor was passing through this thread that Apple was getting into the hires music business. It was stated that this move legitimizes the hires music market. Now that the rumor has fizzled out, me mentioning that hires isn't "a must" or it would be sold by Amazon and Apple is being scoffed at. And around and around we go!
What that means is you guys who have the word "moderator" under your usernames become, rightly or wrongly, the de facto Sonos representatives here, you clearly are in a position of authority that the rest of us aren't, so, whether you want it or not, when you guys say something people pay more attention and when you argue yay or nay on a subject people believe, again, rightly or wrongly, that you have some additional insight into the workings of the company (which I don't believe you do, correct me if I'm wrong).
Generally we have no more insight than other users. Certainly our point of contact is Sonos Support, not Sonos Product Development.
The problem is not that people pay attention more to what we say (which they may or may not do), but that they falsely attribute stuff to us because they are looking for a whipping boy for their frustrations or a target for their false accusations and we are the closest they can get to "official", so we get singled out for things we never actually did.
For instance, on this thread, I checked my posts and they were overwhelmingly in favour of Hires support. The only arguments that could possibly considered to be "against" it were that a) it wasn't any different from any other feature request and b) the majority of the market may not be interested in hires support.
I know that Buzz and Avee have also expressed support for hires.
So when people ask for a feature to be added and you or one of the other mods argue against it (or in one case state, quite categorically, that nobody can hear the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit audio anyway, so there's no point supporting hires, I don't think that was you though)
The closest I got to this was post #158. I'm pretty certain I have never said hires is totally inaudible to everyone in all circumstances, because I don't believe that is true.
I also don't recall any other mod stating this (although I've not checked extensively) and I would be slightly surprised if they had. On the other hand I am aware of several posts from non-moderators who have claimed this. I strongly suspect that people have falsely associated these posts with moderators for the reasons I gave above.
I don't know what the answer is to that though but I do know one thing, I wouldn't want to be a mod here, the phrase "sacrificial lamb" springs to mind...
Most people are reasonable. Occasionally someone will become unreasonable. Each of us has our own personal "anti-fan-club" who organize the occasional vendetta attack on us.
But you do a great job here and rarely get thanked for it, so, from me, thank you!
Thanks for your support!
Cheers,
Keith
If it is problem in hardware, make a new player, and we will buy it.
Have sonos 3 years, and i was very close to put it out from my system. Now I have mac mini for hires, so sonos is staying. But, i would love to have hires suport in Sonos.
Have sonos 3 years, and i was very close to put it out from my system. Now I have mac mini for hires, so sonos is staying. But, i would love to have hires suport in Sonos.
Userlevel 2
You're right, I should have tought about it better.
Never been challenged yet, most people just draw using the points as diameter indication.
Thanks for setting me straight
Never been challenged yet, most people just draw using the points as diameter indication.
Thanks for setting me straight
Nothing is "a must" in audio. We all like what we like regardless. If your unhappy with Sonos and it's lack of higher rez performance then jump ship to another manufacturer that does. Pretty simple really. Sonos will only get that message if enough people start looking elsewhere.
Sonos used to be a leading edge product but seem completely content to let others catch up and surpass it. As much as I like Sonos, if a product doesn't evolve it will eventually go the way of your old VHS player.
Sonos used to be a leading edge product but seem completely content to let others catch up and surpass it. As much as I like Sonos, if a product doesn't evolve it will eventually go the way of your old VHS player.
Userlevel 2
Folks...I like many of you have been following this thread with both interest and hope, that at some point Sonos would provide a hint of future plans. There have been many good suggestions, such as the creation of a "premium" zone player for those willing to pay for the ability to play hi-rez where and when needed. There has also been much conjecture on why Sonos continues to remain silent on this topic, even in light of the fact that virtually every competing product out there is now supporting hi-rez, and it is clearly gaining market momentum. Some posit that backward compatibility would be a major issue, bandwith issues with the network, etc..etc. although most other wireless solutions support hi-rez w/o issue. I would suggest the following. I like many in the sonos community have 6 zones throughout my home. I take advantage of virtually every product Sonos offers, including the use of a CR100, ipod & ipad units to control them. I have an extensive library with mostly apple lossless & other hi-rez formats. I would argue that many who want Hi-rez have setups similar to mine, in that they may have multiple zones...but there is usually only one or two "critical" listening zones. For me..that's the living room, where I have a high end 2 channel "audiophile" class system. The other zones, kitchen, den, patio, dining room...are in-wall speakers & or S5's and are primarily for "background" music. I believe for that purpose, CD quality (not mp3) is sufficient..even though I admit I do have external dacs in some of the larger zone areas. BUT..for the critical area, hi-rez is a must. To get around the lack of hi-rez in Sonos..I have a secondary server (Mac) with ammara..playing thru a Benchmark Dac to my 2 channel hi-end system. Unfortunately it means I must maintain and sync multiple copies of my music and put's Sonos out of the picture..when I want to sit in the living room and do some serious dedicated listening. Not optimal to be sure...but workable. I'd love to have everything integrated under Sonos (playing thru external Dac's true..) but it appears that Sonos just will not participate..for whatever reason. For those of you who really appreciate hi-rez, have a considerable library already, and the equipment to leverage it...then a "dedicated" zone....outside of sonos..seems the only way to go for now..and the foreseeable system. That's a shame, because as a long standing audio enthusiast, I can say there are very few (if any) products that have brought me as much pure pleasure (and fun) as the Sonos family has.
Have sonos 3 years, and i was very close to put it out from my system. Now I have mac mini for hires, so sonos is staying. But, i would love to have hires suport in Sonos.
Read the thread. It's not as simple as making a new player. Since Sonos is first and foremost a multi-room audio system, you have to consider what it will take to sync the new player with older players that cannot do hi-rez. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a standalone player, such as your Mac or any of a dozen others.
Never been challenged yet, most people just draw using the points as diameter indication.
Thanks for setting me straight
Just change it to 3 points and the logic then applies.
Sonos used to be a leading edge product but seem completely content to let others catch up and surpass it. As much as I like Sonos, if a product doesn't evolve it will eventually go the way of your old VHS player.
We've had people in this very thread threatening to leave Sonos because of no hires for going on 7 years, and they are still here ******** about it. If only they would follow through on their threats, we'd finally be free of their pseudo-science nonsense.
+8
Very well put Mr. O'Malley. No point really beating the beast anymore Sonos either will or won't support HiRez at some point, although, and I know Sonos doesn't comment on future plans yada yada, but it would be nice for them to say one way or the other. Of course if they say nay, they loose potential customers, if they say yea, then eveyone says When!!! Tough call.
The issue will be when someone comes out with a product that has as good a user interface, and costs in the ballpark of Sonos. How much business will it cost Sonos. I for one would bag my Sonos products right quick if there was anything that was as slick and well thought out that did HiRez, but right now there isn't, but I'll bet my left *** that someone's working on it.
The issue will be when someone comes out with a product that has as good a user interface, and costs in the ballpark of Sonos. How much business will it cost Sonos. I for one would bag my Sonos products right quick if there was anything that was as slick and well thought out that did HiRez, but right now there isn't, but I'll bet my left *** that someone's working on it.
+20
One idea would be to have a "Sonos Server" running, just like Logitech have with the Squeezebox, however the Sonos system would have to be switched (advanced settings) to the "Sonos Server" if the user needed it features.
With a system of current hardware the Server would not be required, but also in a new system consisting of just Sonos hi-res devices.
The server could then transcode music so it plays on all equipment or a straight passthrough for a Sonos hi-res device. During development the "Sonos Server" would also be specified to handle very large music collections greater than 65k 😉
With a system of current hardware the Server would not be required, but also in a new system consisting of just Sonos hi-res devices.
The server could then transcode music so it plays on all equipment or a straight passthrough for a Sonos hi-res device. During development the "Sonos Server" would also be specified to handle very large music collections greater than 65k 😉
OK - what about the 24 bit part?
LOL.....pseudo-science nonsense. That's politically correct for "closed mind' isn't it ? If we were to talk pseudo-science nonsense, I think Global warming is a better option than audio.
Userlevel 2
I found some reference to this subject in the "Zp 24/96" post from 2007/8, and thought it must be high time to re-activate this discussion.
I have a growing collection of 24-bit FLAC music files, and would like to know if Sonos will support music files of this quality in the near future? If they do choose to, will current hardware be upgradeable in the future? Or, would that be too expensive or technically difficult?
With 24-bit releases becoming increasingly common, and talk of even iTunes supporting HiRes files along with the current specialist download sites, it looks as if Sonos is lagging behind in this area. All the recent audiophile media streamers (such as those from Naim, Marantz, Rotel, etc) along with PC software such as Winamp and MediaMonkey will play 24-bit.
Consumers are increasingly concerned with quality once again, now that streaming has addressed our requirements for convenience. With suitable hardware, we can at last start listening to music in better-than-CD quality; after the failures of DVD-Audio, Super Audio CD and their ilk to grow a market. I hope Sonos will continue their innovation, and take a lead here.
Simon
I have a growing collection of 24-bit FLAC music files, and would like to know if Sonos will support music files of this quality in the near future? If they do choose to, will current hardware be upgradeable in the future? Or, would that be too expensive or technically difficult?
With 24-bit releases becoming increasingly common, and talk of even iTunes supporting HiRes files along with the current specialist download sites, it looks as if Sonos is lagging behind in this area. All the recent audiophile media streamers (such as those from Naim, Marantz, Rotel, etc) along with PC software such as Winamp and MediaMonkey will play 24-bit.
Consumers are increasingly concerned with quality once again, now that streaming has addressed our requirements for convenience. With suitable hardware, we can at last start listening to music in better-than-CD quality; after the failures of DVD-Audio, Super Audio CD and their ilk to grow a market. I hope Sonos will continue their innovation, and take a lead here.
Simon
Given all Sonos devices act as a Media Service (in the UPnP sense) anyway, then there's actually no technical reason why this functionality couldn't be extended to support an external UPnP Media server. This could either be server software provided by Sonos (and which tightly coupled into the ecosystem) or nominated third-party apps, like Twonky.
Personally I'm in favour of such an approach to deal with extended local libraries and (perhaps) extended tag support and indexing options.
Transcoding is also an option (although a potentially complex one) within such a system, and this could provide a way to dynamically transcode material to a format the current systems could play. This, alone, could satisfy many people. Note that Henkelis's Python server emulates a WMP server and, I believe, has options to support transcoding, so it's definitely possible.
However, streaming hires to a different player from the server is a completely different architecture to how Sonos works. The problem is sync. Sonos deals with sync by taking a single stream and coordinating distribution of the stream and sync between players. This design is partly responsible for Sonos's superior sync capability. Such a system can only deal with one resolution of stream at any time.
Other systems (like Squeezebox) which have used a server with separate streams to each player have struggled to get close to Sonos in sync capabilities. It literally took Squeezbox about 4 years to get anything close to decent sync, and it still not as slick or reliable as Sonos. It's a totally different architecture, and not a very good one for multi-room support. It would require a ground-up change from Sonos to do this. I can't see that happening.
There are also technical challenges with wireless networks and the volumes of data, which will probably mandate that hires support can only be achieved on wired players. Not a great selling point for a "wireless" music system.
The important thing to consider is that any of the developments being proposed will consume considerable development and testing time and money. There are many possibilities. the big question is whether the market demand for hires is enough to convince Sonos to invest heavily in developments to achieve it, especially if in doing so they detract from or dilute the main product significantly.
Cheers,
Keith
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