Hey Sonos Engineers!
I know this has been touched upon. I previously submitted this request to support and they encouraged me to share here to keep the conversation going.
Is there any chance we could implement a soft switch for line-in audio to bypass the computer for "delay disable" functionality.
I understand and appreciate the reason for the delay.
However, I'm running turntables through a mixer and into the line-in of the PLAY:5. Can't teach my son to mix records with that delay, and since we're set-up in a communal space, my wife is not too keen on bringing out the old mix monitors. Can you dig it?
Can we figure out a way to manually disable the delay on an individual speaker basis?
Otherwise love the gear!
Thanks!
Here's quote from customer support. Hope it isn't too heavy handed or out of school to post:
"I'm not on the development team, but I personally think that it wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of soft switch to bypass the computer altogether and pipe line-in audio directly to the amplifiers (something like a computer-controlled solid state IC relay network)."
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This stated earlier in the thread, but the idea that the Tech need for the Five to be ‘no delay’ already exists in the HT equipment isn’t true. The Five has an analog input, while the HT devices have digital inputs. That means that the Five would need to convert from analog to digital without delay, or have some sort of bypass mode (analog input to analog speakers) that hardware may not support. I don’t know. Regardless, that analog mode would only work when the speaker isn’t playing with any other speaker in the system. No stereo pairs or sub.
As it happens conversion A-D or D-A is almost instant.
Like all Sonos players the Five has a digital audio pipeline, including decode, volume, EQ and crossover, plus of course Trueplay digital room correction. There can’t be an analog bypass. Notwithstanding the network buffer there will be FIFOs in there which introduce slight delay. (Witness the sync problems some users have with AV receivers which do the same.)
Sonos simply wasn’t engineered for zero latency. It didn’t need to be.
Development costs would certainly play a role, because there are many implications when adding ‘no audio’ delay - A user would clearly have to detach the speaker from the rest of the audio system to make it standalone, so it could then not be ‘grouped’, ‘paired’ or ‘bonded’ at all in that state, because otherwise that currently requires some audio delay/buffering and options to keep the audio in sync over a wireless network.
This stated earlier in the thread, but the idea that the Tech need for the Five to be ‘no delay’ already exists in the HT equipment isn’t true. The Five has an analog input, while the HT devices have digital inputs. That means that the Five would need to convert from analog to digital without delay, or have some sort of bypass mode (analog input to analog speakers) that hardware may not support. I don’t know. Regardless, that analog mode would only work when the speaker isn’t playing with any other speaker in the system. No stereo pairs or sub.
If they did do something like this though, I don’t know that they would necessarily have to lock out groups, just have a mechanism that switches to normal playback when grouped. I imagine the inability to group without delay defeats the point for a significant portion of people looking for the feature though.
Sonos could, I guess, create a new standalone speaker to achieve no-delay audio, like they did with the Move in order to take the audio outside the Home and arguably, even that was against the Sonos main purpose, but clearly there was a good deal of customer demand there for such a ‘new’ device to switch between ‘outside’ use and also being part of a multi-room wireless system
I think Sonos is rather hesitant to create audio devices that are separate from their home audio system. I get that in some respect, as they don’t want to drift to far from their ‘wheelhouse’ or confuse people buying a standalone speaker they think is part of the system. On the other hand, it seems like Sonos has a developed a brand name now, and they could make easy income by leveraging that name to make other types of audio devices, same as most other audio companies.
There are ‘cheaper’ standalone/wired speakers on the market that do ‘no delay’ line audio already and I don’t personally think it’s an area that Sonos would ever want to step into/compete with, nor do I honestly think that there is any great demand from their customers for them to do this. I just don’t see there being much in terms of any additional speaker/hardware sales either.
I’m not 100% sure on this. I certainly have audio needs that Sonos doesn’t currently fill. If Sonos made other audio equipment, there is a good chance I would buy the Sonos brand based on brand reputation only.
Hey
Yes, Sonos is a multi-room wireless home audio speaker system. Yet they’ve gone into homecinema, added a mobile speaker with bluetooth, added line-in and added the no-delay functionality. Because they apparently thought it was worth the effort, it’s not up to us to decide that for them.
This is a feature request to expand the no-delay functionality to the analog inputs.
I’m certainly not deciding it for Sonos. I’m just attempting to look at the issues here objectively.
As a speaker hardware manufacturer, the Home Cinema market with ‘wireless’ surround sound speakers, was a ‘no brainer’ for Sonos from a sales point of view. The demand for it was clearly there before they ventured into that market.
In support, a number of similar speaker manufacturers have taken that same route, due to such demand and it’s perhaps been the same too with portable devices, like the Move, which do have a purpose to take music outside of the home, but also a user is still able to use the Move in the home as part of their wireless multi-room system. The demand for that product with Bluetooth was there too. Again some other ‘similar’ manufactures chose to go down this route aswell.
At the end of the day it is about demand from the public and ultimately, hardware sales.
All Sonos products still centre around a multi-room wireless home audio system and a ‘no audio’ delay product simply does not directly fit in with that purpose. The demand for such a Sonos speaker within this community, or elsewhere online, is quite insignificant too, it appears.
There are reports in this community where some Sonos audio dropout issues arise with products running on some (often quite poorly managed) wireless networks, which Sonos have tried to help with, by introducing various ‘group audio delay’ settings to help counteract those dropout issues in order to assist users to obtain a stable platform even in the poorest of WiFi environments. To switch and suddenly introduce a ‘no-delay’ option, seems a rather backward step when looking at the main purpose of their speakers and their continued use in a wireless multi room-speaker system.
Development costs would certainly play a role, because there are many implications when adding ‘no audio’ delay - A user would clearly have to detach the speaker from the rest of the audio system to make it standalone, so it could then not be ‘grouped’, ‘paired’ or ‘bonded’ at all in that state, because otherwise that currently requires some audio delay/buffering and options to keep the audio in sync over a wireless network.
Sonos could, I guess, create a new standalone speaker to achieve no-delay audio, like they did with the Move in order to take the audio outside the Home and arguably, even that was against the Sonos main purpose, but clearly there was a good deal of customer demand there for such a ‘new’ device to switch between ‘outside’ use and also being part of a multi-room wireless system
There are ‘cheaper’ standalone/wired speakers on the market that do ‘no delay’ line audio already and I don’t personally think it’s an area that Sonos would ever want to step into/compete with, nor do I honestly think that there is any great demand from their customers for them to do this. I just don’t see there being much in terms of any additional speaker/hardware sales either.
Indeed. The 30ms for HT setups is there in all configs. There has to be some finite playout buffer on an asynchronous network to allow for packet jitter. The tight 5GHz coupling allows this to be reduced to 30ms from the 75ms minimum requirement on the shared 2.4GHz.
As for
Using development costs as a reason not to build something is just a fallacy. The more so if the functionality already exists in the platform.
(a) the functionality -- a direct pass-thru -- doesn’t already exist, and (b) the idea that costs have no bearing on business decisions is quite simply risible.
...and added the no-delay functionality. Because they apparently thought it was worth the effort, it’s not up to us to decide that for them.
As a purely technical comment, i do not believe they have introduced ‘no delay’ anywhere. I believe (although I am not 100% certain) that the 30ms lag is to allow the main HT speaker (e.g. Arc) to sync with the Sub / surrounds. 30ms is not detectable by the brain as far as lip sync issues are concerned. The connection used is direct routing over 5GHz, because this allows latency as low as 30ms. I aloo believe (but am not 100% certain) that this delay also applies when the HT speaker is used without Sub and speakers. That would be consistent with having a lag on the line-in on a Play:5 even when not grouped.
If the HT speaker is grouped with other speakers for music, the 75ms lag is needed to sync perfectly, as it is for any other speaker.
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
So I think you were right in the first place.
Userlevel 1
Hey
Yes, Sonos is a multi-room wireless home audio speaker system. Yet they’ve gone into homecinema, added a mobile speaker with bluetooth, added line-in and added the no-delay functionality. Because they apparently thought it was worth the effort, it’s not up to us to decide that for them.
This is a feature request to expand the no-delay functionality to the analog inputs.
Some of the reasons I see to not implement a ‘no-delay’ audio feature is the development cost and the lack of any customer demand, relatively speaking ...and perhaps ‘most important of all’ it also goes against the main purpose of a Sonos Audio System, which is first and foremost designed as a multi-room wireless home audio speaker system.
The Sonos products are not a speaker for use with a DJ mixing desk, or to use for karaoke. The patented computer-based technology inside a Sonos device would be somewhat irrelevant for that lesser-type of functionality and I guess many other manufacturers would (and do) make a similar sounding speaker cheaper for that ‘limited-only’ purpose.
Sonos is geared towards quite a niché market area and I personally think they should continue to concentrate their development efforts in that area, rather than perhaps trying to be "all things to all men”… er … and women.
Userlevel 1
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
No they don't, on digital input, unless you Group them with other devices.
Oh, I heard that it was also the case on ungrouped speakers. So this delay-free functionality already exists in the platform.
Then what would the remaining reasons be not to implement this feature?
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
Member since 2017, just posting now? Phew, I smell stinky socks.
Userlevel 7
+23
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
No they don't, on digital input, unless you Group them with other devices.
Userlevel 1
All of these devices have a delay though. Even the HDMI/ARC options have a 30ms delay.
We all know the real reason the line in has delay to it. You just don’t want to say it. Products with line-in don’t cost enough, and the latency is your penalty/incentive to buy the more expensive model. “Don’t be a cheater” says SONOS. “You need to pay for the expensive home theatre products if you want true line in. Proles.” And you better like it too.
Line In capable products:
Port - $450
Five - $500
Amp - $650
Move - $400 (if you count bluetooth as a line in capability)
No latency (HDMI-ARC/optical)
Beam - $400
Amp - $650
Arc - $800
Good grief. 
(Merged with other reply)
To quote Sonos marketing:
“Everything works together, and Sonos works with all your favourite services so you can listen to what you want, where you want, how you want.”
Perhaps this should read:
“Everything works together, and Sonos works with all your favourite services so you can listen to what you want, where you want, how you want - unless you want to use Sonos for PC gaming, Youtube streaming, DJ turntables, electronic drums….”
BINGO. The current marketing is a fraud. For instance, they should not be calling it a line in port. Line in ports do not have delays.
What Sonos has is a DLIP “Delayed Line In Port”. Market it as such, or don’t market it at all. Just don’t defraud the consumer with false expectations. If you’re finding this thread because you just dropped > $500 on a speaker with more lag than a $5 PC speaker, RETURN IT TO THE STORE, and tell them why.
I did not mean to be condescending. I’m just very surprised when people do not read up on stuff before they buy.
What is the latency on your car’s audio system and it’s line-in port? It’s more expensive than a Sonos. so I’m sure you had that info before you bought it. Right?
Just had a marketing email from Sonos suggesting that I use a Sonos speaker in my home office as a “ home office assistant”. I’m confused - why would you introduce a Sonos [rather than, say, an Echo Dot] into a home office where the chances are you already have a computer with speakers … unless of course you could replace the computer speakers with the Sonos … but for many, the latency issue may be a barrier to doing so … ?
And to borrow some logic from elsewhere in this thread…
Wait a minute…. Why on earth would they integrate with Alexa or Google Home? This is a multiroom buffered audio product, not an office assistant. Don’t tow a horse trailer with a ferarri already! Reply to that Sonos marketing guy would you, and fill him in about ferarris.
Oh. Wait. People wanted it. Like the TRUE line in capability. So they did it. So do it already with the true line-in option. I’m not interested in excuses and apologizers with rose colored glasses defending a caustic design decision.
We all know the real reason the line in has delay to it. You just don’t want to say it. Products with line-in don’t cost enough, and the latency is your penalty/incentive to buy the more expensive model. “Don’t be a cheater” says SONOS. “You need to pay for the expensive home theatre products if you want true line in. Proles.” And you better like it too.
The fact that they do sell low latency versions for home theater tells you it is 100% doable. They just want a bigger pound of flesh. And good for them i guess. Capitalism.
All my sonos products have wired ethernet. And all products that are on a wired gig-e lan together, at this price point, should have 1ms or less latency. Full Stop.
Arrgg. I just brought home a Sonos amp to drive a second set of monitor speakers in my studio, and use the line in as a drum/bass monitor during rehearsals. 70 ms = unusable for any live performance. I appreciate the reasons for the design but it is not something I would have anticipated.
Return to the store. Tell them why. Ask for more refund than what you paid because of the time wasted.
Again, it’s been 4 years. More time isn’t going to increase the level of interest. Not unless there is a dramatic change in how people listen to music. I kind of doubt people are going to start using more computer speakers and DJ music...in their multiroom audio system.
yep. Not like there’s been a big societal change. likely a permanent one that has more people using their home differently than before. Perhaps necessitating that people use an entertainment space for computers some times, and entertainment for others.
Nope. Can’t think of anything like that happen recently…. cough…
Userlevel 1
Why counter my vote for the feature if you’re not against it? I was trying to prevent exactly this bike shedding with my first post.
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At Sonos employees: I would just like a straightforward way of connecting no-delay inputs like instruments & computer audio to the RCA / mini jack inputs on the AMP & Five.
The current solution looks a little ridiculous and still adds ~30ms of delay: HDMI-Optical audio converter → optical audio cable → digital-analog converter → RCA cable → Actual audio device.
This thread has little to do with the reasons why Sonos has not done this before. There are plenty. Otherwise they would’ve done so years ago. It’s a feature request, to persuade Sonos to add the functionality.
So, Sonos supports no-delay with HDMI ARC & optical audio. Why not provide this same functionality in the RCA / mini-jack line-in where available?
That’s the question I addressed in my post. Not sure why you are asking again.
Group-wise: the Playbar, Beam & Arc have an implementation, you can set the group delay, expand the feature in a consistent way.
The request is not for just the Five. You forget the RCA line-ins on the AMP & Port. My example provides the exact usecase for those devices. It’s not feasible to run a computer speaker, dj controller or similar gear through HDMI.
I did address those. The Amp has the ARC/optical port, which covers TVs, the majority of users. If you want to use it as a computer speaker or DJ, you can get an analog to optical convertor. This would be rather overkill though, as there are better devices built for this purpose.
For the Port, it has no use except if connected to a 3rd party amp or to group with another room. If grouping to another room, the delay is needed for multiroom audio, no point in removing it. If connected to a 3rd party amp, then connect your computer/DJ equipment directly to the third party amp.
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The amount of replies & votes does not imply this should be implemented. What I tried to say: Maybe over time, there will be enough for Sonos to listen.
Again, it’s been 4 years. More time isn’t going to increase the level of interest. Not unless there is a dramatic change in how people listen to music. I kind of doubt people are going to start using more computer speakers and DJ music...in their multiroom audio system.
Userlevel 1
Just to add clarification, Sonos already has speakers that can be used for TVs. The Beam, Arc, and Amp. The Move has bluetooth.
The three devices that have line-in capability are the Amp, Port, and Five. As mentioned already, the Amp has the ARC port for no delay/TV audio. The Port is usually used with a 3rd party amp that will likely have an input itself without delay. So this feature you’re asking for would likely be used with the Five only. I’m not sure why Sonos would want to make a no delay mode, to use with a TV, when they already have devices for TV use.
The other negative of this is that it would add some confusion to an already too complex, IMO, system. When in this no delay mode, would grouping be disabled? Would you need to remove the mode in order to group? Would grouping be allowed, but grouped speakers delayed, as it currently is for TV audio?
I am not against the idea, and likely would use it myself, but I definitely see reasons why Sonos hasn’t done it. As far as the amount of replies, ~120 in 4 years doesn’t say a lot. Granted, these are not people who buy if the feature existed, but more people who bought Sonos without realizing the feature wasn’t there.
This thread has little to do with the reasons why Sonos has not done this before. There are plenty. Otherwise they would’ve done so years ago. It’s a feature request, to persuade Sonos to add the functionality.
So, Sonos supports no-delay with HDMI ARC & optical audio. Why not provide this same functionality in the RCA / mini-jack line-in where available?
Group-wise: the Playbar, Beam & Arc have an implementation, you can set the group delay, expand the feature in a consistent way.
The request is not for just the Five. You forget the RCA line-ins on the AMP & Port. My example provides the exact usecase for those devices. It’s not feasible to run a computer speaker, dj controller or similar gear through HDMI.
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The amount of replies & votes does not imply this should be implemented. What I tried to say: Maybe over time, there will be enough for Sonos to listen.
There’s probably nothing that has not been said already. But I’m going to chime in anyhow.
I would also really like the no-latency standalone mode. The implementation could be very transparent: no delay on the line-in when not paired, the usual (configurable) 75ms~2000ms delay when paired with any other speaker. That would allow users of TV’s, computer speakers & DJ gear to use their great Sonos speakers to double as direct play speakers and completely replace the legacy systems. This would increase their footing in the industry they actually focus on: To be the prime audio system for the entire home. (Voice assistant, multi-room, streaming, local libraries)
Of course, the way wifi and streaming works, you can not remove the delay in all scenarios. That’s a fact of physics. But that does not mean other customers should vote against this idea while a lot of other users would love to see it. This is a great chance for Sonos, not a threat.
Please let the amount of votes & replies on this thread speak for itself.
Just to add clarification, Sonos already has speakers that can be used for TVs. The Beam, Arc, and Amp. The Move has bluetooth.
The three devices that have line-in capability are the Amp, Port, and Five. As mentioned already, the Amp has the ARC port for no delay/TV audio. The Port is usually used with a 3rd party amp that will likely have an input itself without delay. So this feature you’re asking for would likely be used with the Five only. I’m not sure why Sonos would want to make a no delay mode, to use with a TV, when they already have devices for TV use.
The other negative of this is that it would add some confusion to an already too complex, IMO, system. When in this no delay mode, would grouping be disabled? Would you need to remove the mode in order to group? Would grouping be allowed, but grouped speakers delayed, as it currently is for TV audio?
I am not against the idea, and likely would use it myself, but I definitely see reasons why Sonos hasn’t done it. As far as the amount of replies, ~120 in 4 years doesn’t say a lot. Granted, these are not people who buy if the feature existed, but more people who bought Sonos without realizing the feature wasn’t there.
Userlevel 1
There’s probably nothing that has not been said already. But I’m going to chime in anyhow.
I would also really like the no-latency standalone mode. The implementation could be very transparent: no delay on the line-in when not paired, the usual (configurable) 75ms~2000ms delay when paired with any other speaker. That would allow users of TV’s, computer speakers & DJ gear to use their great Sonos speakers to double as direct play speakers and completely replace the legacy systems. This would increase their footing in the industry they actually focus on: To be the prime audio system for the entire home. (Voice assistant, multi-room, streaming, local libraries)
Of course, the way wifi and streaming works, you can not remove the delay in all scenarios. That’s a fact of physics. But that does not mean other customers should vote against this idea while a lot of other users would love to see it. This is a great chance for Sonos, not a threat.
Please let the amount of votes & replies on this thread speak for itself.
Arrgg. I just brought home a Sonos amp to drive a second set of monitor speakers in my studio, and use the line in as a drum/bass monitor during rehearsals. 70 ms = unusable for any live performance. I appreciate the reasons for the design but it is not something I would have anticipated.
Hi! sorry for my english. I have the same problem as many. I´d like to use the Sonos Play 5 Gen:2 as a DJ speaker and latency is big issue.
I understand that latency is necessary to connect via wifi but when connecting via minijack i shouldn´t have this problem. In my Bowers & Wilkins Zeppelin Air I can use the minijack input for DJ without any problem...
Hi
Welcome, thank you for reaching out to Sonos Community.
You can try to check this link for Use Line-In on Sonos
Let us know if it works. If you need help with any other information, please be sure to let us know.
Great that Sonos has seen this issue and replied in this thread. However, the articles provided do not provide any solution to the problem presented here.
I would like to connect my Play 5 (Gen 2) via Line-In to another system - a Naim Atom that is already connected to speakers but can also connect via RCA. If there was no delay on the Play 5, this would mean that the Play 5/5 (and its older, almost redundant brother the Gen 1) could have further use in third party set ups (not to mention all those listed above).
just want to add my voice of support for a feature to remove the latency in an ungrouped / local mode
yes this is a scope-creep request- it isn’t how sonos was designed
i have a playbar, sub, two play:1 surrounds, and a play:5… and they work quite well as a connected home theater
but i also play electric guitar with a boss kitana mk2 amp that doesn’t have looping hardware, and an external rc-500 loop station that i would love to be able to throw into the play:5. it would save having to buy yet another bulky non-sonos speaker or upgrade the whole guitar amp- and could be done with a basic software patch
i’m an electrical & computer engineer so i understand the sync issue and a product manager by trade and yes it’s a questionable call to prioritize building and supporting it
but there’s a big community of passionate hackers and musicians that would benefit from sonos understanding and making a fairly small edit
hopefully folks will continue to post their use-cases here so (1)some people can search and find that the delay won’t work for their particular need before they buy, and (2) maybe sonos will pay attention and decide solving for this community should be in their company DNA
rock on
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