I would just like to say thank you to @Highfalutintodd and @melvimbe for their particularly informed, thoughtful and perceptive comments about the Arcana and the issues it addresses, over the last few weeks.
Can't wait to get mine!
The only way I’ve been able to get Atmos on my 2018 Vizio (E70-F3) is via the built-in Netflix and Plex apps. Disney+ and Prime Video don’t seem to output Atmos for me on this set using the built-in apps (though it feels like they should) and the Apple TV+ app isn't available on Vizio yet. I don’t use Vudu so can’t comment on that one (although I should have tried it to rent a movie this past weekend).
Super weirdly, my TV and the Arc both THINK I’m getting Atmos out of my Apple TV 4K sometimes - even on things that are DEFINITELY NOT Atmos. Very, very odd.
Perhaps the best ‘features’ of the Arcana is that it completely removes a TVs audio capabilities from your setup. Even if your TV currently works for with the Sonos Arc and the TV sources you have now, you will not need to hope everything works fine when you add additional source to your setup. There should be quite solid information available on what sources and streaming apps work with Arcana/Arc. I suspect it won’t be long before there are more users of Arcana than any specific TV model. I also believe from what I’ve seen that if there is an issue with a source and Arcana, HD Fury is much more likely to address the issue than any TV manufacturer.
First of all, thanks for this post and pointing out this product! Defenitely looking for such a solution. Below my 2 cents.
I was at the point of pre-ordering as well, but as I understand from their ‘Getting Started’ tab https://www.hdfury.com/product/4k-arcana-18gbps/, they have some sort of graduated scale in what they will adapt in the product (as I understand they call this their Stretch Goal).
The most basic option would entail only splitting the audio from the video. In that case there is no ARC loopback from the TV through the device to the Sonos ARC. Also no CEC for control purposes.
The website also states: “Our Dev Team has a roadmap and a specific approach to make this a reality; there is no guarantee that it will work, but the outlook is VERY promising.”. Well that does sound promising, but I think I’ll just wait until the product is released and tested. I’d rather pay 199 USD instead of 155 USD with the guarantee of a working product.
Last but not least: I might be in the wrong here, but the whole idea of ARC vs eARC is the bandwidth right? Not being able to pass both 4K video and Atmos over TrueHD through HDMI 2.0? That makes me worried about the HDMI 2.0 specification on this product. Especially considering they specifically note 18Gbps, the speed of HDMI 2.0. And even if it does work, it’s definitely not future (8K) proof. Just something to consider.
At heart, Arcana is designed to do one core function: get full range audio from an external source to the Sonos Arc so that people with incompatible TVs could get Atmos on their Arcs without having to buy a new TV. HD Fury has been exceptionally transparent during the product development process and we’ve gotten to see - and even vote on - the inclusion of new features as they went along. CEC control was one of those. Sound loop back from the tv was another. They even added the splitter functionality fairly late in the process. Originally you were going to need an external splitter to make it work as well.
if CEC and loop back are important to you, yeah, maybe you should wait to see if it gets added. For many of us, those features will be nice to haves but not deal breakers (I don’t need either, for example).
As for 18Gbps / 2.0 / 8k - nothing in tech is future proof. Nothing. Something newer, faster, different, better, cheaper will always come along. And Arcana is far from the last word in solutions to the problem it’s solving - but it is the first, which is why we’re excited about it. Based on HD Fury’s track record, I’m sure they’ll keep coming out with adapters and solutions as needs change.
The latest I’ve heard is shipment for preorders is still September 15th, moved up from October 1st. HDFury did send out beta units to a handful of testers last week, with many of them already arrived at the testers, so I would not expecting shipping to take too long on these.
Also regarding beta testers for Arcana, they are not under and NDAs are allowed and even encouraged to share their results in the discord channel. A bit different from Sonos, although it’s obviously a much different situation. They only have need a dozen or so testers really. I haven’t looked too closely, but haven’t seen any reported bugs.
@Highfalutintodd, are you one of the beta testers?
I am, indeed! My Arcana beta unit arrived on Tuesday and have been testing it since.
The good news is that it does what it says on the tin - it lets you get Atmos from external sources.
The only issues so far (that I’ve seen) have been regarding CEC control and, to be honest, I don’t particularly understand the intricacies of what all’s happening. What I CAN say is that HD Fury has been ridiculously responsive to concerns and have already pushed out no fewer than 5 firmware updates to correct issues in the last three days. For example, I was having an issue with the Apple TV remote not controlling the Arc volume, but a firmware update later all is well.
I’d say we’re in the “fine tuning” stage in that it absolutely works as intended, but CEC is such a mish-mash of poorly implemented functionality across various devices that HD Fury is having to see how Arcana works in the real world with a variety of equipment and adjust accordingly.
Can someone please explain how the HDFury Arcana will enable an Apple TV 4k to successfully connect to a Sonos Arc and receive Atmos audio?
I understand (i think) how the Arcana splits the source HDMI signal and means that if you have an ARC TV (rather eARC) you will be able to connect….but how does it get around the main issue that Apple TV 4K only outputs Atmos in LPCM, and currently the Sonos Atmos can not receive LPCM Atmos audio?
I don’t have AT4K, and don’t fully get the issues that it has. My understanding, perhaps incorrect, is that AT4K sends DD+ for all of it’s apps except for Apple +. So Arcana would resolve issues of getting the DD+ signal from AT4K to the Arc, but not LPCM.
And to be clear, with Arcana, audio pretty much bypassing the TV or PJ completely, so the display device does not need to have eARC or ARC capabilities at all. Technically, you don’t even have to connect a display, though you won’t see anything of course.
Thanks - so using a HDFury Arcana you still wouldn’t be able to watch Apple Movies with Dolby Atmos audio on an Apple TV 4K.
If correct, I don’t understand the point of using the device (in relation to Apple TV 4K) as for most users the main point of the Apple TV is to rent/buy Apple Movies.
Can anyone add info? Thanks.
Hey @CJG. The Sonos Arc DOES support the audio container Apple TV 4K uses to send Atmos (called Dolby MAT) so with an Arcana you CAN listen to Atmos from any app that supports it on Apple TV. I’ve already listened to Atmos on Apple TV via Arcana from Netflix, Disney+, Amazon Prime Video, and Apple TV+. That’s the entire point of the Arcana, after all, and it works great!
Can someone please explain how the HDFury Arcana will enable an Apple TV 4k to successfully connect to a Sonos Arc and receive Atmos audio?
I understand (i think) how the Arcana splits the source HDMI signal and means that if you have an ARC TV (rather eARC) you will be able to connect….but how does it get around the main issue that Apple TV 4K only outputs Atmos in LPCM, and currently the Sonos Atmos can not receive LPCM Atmos audio?
To delve into this a little deeper:
Atmos can be sent over three different codecs: Dolby TrueHD (realistically Blu-ray only), Dolby Digital Plus (all the streaming services), and Dolby MAT (“Metadata-enhanced Audio Transport” - really rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it?).
Dolby MAT is the oddball here so, of course, it’s what Apple uses (and Microsoft for Xbox One X/S). It’s really more of a container - the Apple TV decodes the Dolby bitstream into lossless multi-channel PCM audio, layers the Siri and system sounds on top of it, tops it off with the Atmos metadata where applicable, then packages it all up and sends it on to be played.
(Note: if you can’t tell, I’m VASTLY simplifying this, probably to the point of lunacy.)
Since the Sonos Arc is able to decode all Dolby formats, it’s perfectly happy to play whatever’s in the Dolby MAT container, including Atmos. Which makes the Arc’s inability to handle multi-channel PCM audio all the more infuriating because it’s basically ALREADY playing multi-channel PCM audio, but only if it comes wrapped as Dolby MAT. Neat, huh?
Non-Atmos content from the Apple TV is a little more complex, unfortunately, and we’re entering the realm of speculation here. On the Arcana, when I play Atmos content from the Apple TV 4K, I get “Dolby Atmos” in the “About my System” section of the Sonos App. When I play any other multichannel audio, however, I only get “Dolby Digital 5.1.” HD Fury speculates that this may have something to do with the Arc’s inability to handle multi-channel PCM audio, and I know that directly contradicts what I just said above. But the reality is that, for whatever reason, Dolby Digital Plus DOES NOT seem to be able to be passed from the Apple TV to the Arc via Arcana at this time. Whether this changes when Sonos finally puts out their multi-channel PCM update is something we’ll have to wait to see.
Clear a mud? ;-)
The only way I’ve been able to get Atmos on my 2018 Vizio (E70-F3) is via the built-in Netflix and Plex apps. Disney+ and Prime Video don’t seem to output Atmos for me on this set using the built-in apps (though it feels like they should) and the Apple TV+ app isn't available on Vizio yet. I don’t use Vudu so can’t comment on that one (although I should have tried it to rent a movie this past weekend).
Super weirdly, my TV and the Arc both THINK I’m getting Atmos out of my Apple TV 4K sometimes - even on things that are DEFINITELY NOT Atmos. Very, very odd.
Perhaps the best ‘features’ of the Arcana is that it completely removes a TVs audio capabilities from your setup. Even if your TV currently works for with the Sonos Arc and the TV sources you have now, you will not need to hope everything works fine when you add additional source to your setup. There should be quite solid information available on what sources and streaming apps work with Arcana/Arc. I suspect it won’t be long before there are more users of Arcana than any specific TV model. I also believe from what I’ve seen that if there is an issue with a source and Arcana, HD Fury is much more likely to address the issue than any TV manufacturer.
Oh, I am hour one pre-orderer for Arcana and I’ll be MORE than happy to take my TV out of the audio loop here. But got to deal with it the way it is for the next couple of months.
The website also states: “Our Dev Team has a roadmap and a specific approach to make this a reality; there is no guarantee that it will work, but the outlook is VERY promising.”. Well that does sound promising, but I think I’ll just wait until the product is released and tested. I’d rather pay 199 USD instead of 155 USD with the guarantee of a working product.
This is an entirely reasonable approach and nobody could blame you for it. But i shall just point out that if everyone takes the same approach then failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - pre-orders never hit 800 and so the extra features never get built.
Simple question; Will Apple TV 4K stream Atmos from all the major providers (Netflix, Apple TV+, Prime and Disney+)? I read somewhere a while ago that there were issues with one of them.
Reason I ask is I have an older non eArc TV which the apps are starting to become buggy on. So looking at updating my streaming media device and getting an Arcana.
Yes, Apple TV 4K supports Atmos from all of the streaming providers you mention. If the content itself is in Atmos, you’ll get Atmos from the Apple TV 4K to Arc via Arcana
I think I expressed myself badly. I just meant that if nobody preorders until they know whether the addional features will be included, the additional features will not be included, because the 800 target won't be hit.
Hi - sorry for the really basic question but I want to check before I bite the bullet on a pre-order and I get lost when talking about all these things!
I have the Sky Q/Arc lip sync issue where the video is ahead of the audio (so audio delay doesn’t help me). This can be resolved by plugging the Sky Q direct into the Arc via optical but then I lose the DD+ signal. Will the Arcana help with this issue?
Does the Arcana essentially enable me to directly plug into the Arc via HDMI but also into the TV?
Re: lip sync - yes. From the Arcana product FAQ:
Can Arcana solves lip sync issue from eARC TV to SONOS ARC?
Yes! There is one thing people tend to forget, so far there is absolutely no TV that we know of that will modify its own internal EDID based on what CDS it can read from the connected eARC RX. It simply downmixes or re-encodes (with delay) the incoming audio according to what eARC RX can handle. This is why when connected to an eARC TV, the SONOS Arc can have serious lip sync issues. All that will be fixed with Arcana.
Re: connections - Basically. It’s more complicated than this, but you can think of it as a splitter that’s taking the signal from an external source or switch, sending the video to the TV then sending the audio via eARC to the Sonos Arc. It will make the Arc think it’s plugged into an eARC TV and takes your TV’s audio capabilities out of the equation.
Thanks @melvimbe - very helpful. Would I be right in saying that it would also help the SkyQ give full lossless Atmos as currently I only get DD+ Atmos ? as my TV is limited to DD+ pass through.
“Lossless” Atmos is only available on Blu-ray Discs, not streaming services.
Atmos is just spatial metadata passed over another audio codec. It can be passed over Dolby Digital Plus (a “lossy” codec used on all streaming services) or Dolby TrueHD (a “lossless” codec basically only used on Blu-ray / 4K Blu-ray). Either way, it’s Atmos.
The Arc supports Atmos over either codec. In a nutshell:
Dolby Digital Plus + Atmos
- Type: Lossy / low-bandwidth
- HDMI-ARC: Yes
- eARC: Yes
- Available on: Compatible streaming platforms and content
Dolby TrueHD + Atmos
- Type: Lossless / high-bandwidth
- HDMI-ARC: No
- eARC: Yes
- Available on: Blu-ray Disc, UHD Blu-ray Disc
Side note: A lot of people seem to get all worked up over “lossy” vs “lossless.” I honestly wouldn’t worry about it. Most audio you listen to day in and day out is “lossy” - streaming music services (Apple Music / Pandora / Spotify / etc.), streaming video services (Netflix, Prime Video, Disney Plus, etc.), every DVD you’ve ever heard, many Blu-ray Discs, satellite radio, etc. etc. And ALL video you watch is “lossy.”
“Lossy” doesn’t mean “bad,” it just means some data has been eliminated to achieve smaller file sizes. The audio codecs Dolby and DTS have developed over the past 20+ years are really amazing and sound incredible. “Lossless” means you’re getting exactly what the sound mixers heard… but only if you’ve got audio equipment good enough to reproduce it. And while the Sonos Arc is very, very good, professionals are not mixing audio using soundbars. ;-)
Update for anyone here that is not on Discord:
HDFury just confirmed that they will start shipping on September 15th, approx. 400 units a day, to finish on the 19th. Pre orders are now at approx 1400, so by that math they would either finish early, or it means that they expect to have the 1900 units they refer to on their website ready to ship on the 15th.
Hey people!
Got mine today and it’s working a treat! Got Atmos, all the tv apps work and it’s perfect!!
So glad it’s working. I can now finally enjoy the films on Apple TV 4K - Happy happy day!
Hi,
I am about to buy Arcana to solve Arc audio issues but if Diva does everything that Arcana do, then I might want to get Diva for extra features. So my question is, can I use 4K Diva 18Gbps to solve the audio issues that Arcana suppose to fix?
Diva will not resolve the issues Arcana fixes. Diva does not have the capability of generating an eARC signal the way Arcana does. Really, Arcana is the only device that isn’t a TV that can generate an ARC or eARC audio signal, and it does so without an extra processing and and such which can cause the audio and video to be out of sync.
HD Fury has hinted at the possibly that the next generation of their Diva/Vertex/Maestro products will have the Arcana functionality built in, but that next gen seems to be rather far off, at least a year I imagine.
My second question is, does Arcana or Diva add any latency due to processing. I'm asking because I want to use these devices for gaming purposes.
HD Fury’s website says that input lag is less than 1ms for each product.
Edit: Also, in the Arcana features it’s mentioned: “Allow DV content playback from LLDV capable source on any HDR10 display for improved picture quality”. I wonder how this feature works? Is there a web interface for setting up these kinds of settings like in Diva?
Thanks,
Arcana does not have a web interface. It has it’s own LED screen and a dial on the side that allows you to change configurations. If you’re asking how Arcana is able to accomplish this technically, I barely understand HDR and LLDV, much less how to convert between the two. I’m not sure HD Fury wants to really share how they do though.
You can get answers from HD Fury directly by connecting to their Discord channel. The information for that is on this thread somewhere. HD Fury will also answer questions on the AVS forum.
Arcana - https://www.avsforum.com/threads/hdfury-arcana-earc-adapter-for-sonos-arc-and-bose-700-soundbars.3153792/page-14
Diva - https://www.avsforum.com/threads/hdfury-diva-owners-thread.3033360/page-96#post-60073685
There is probably more details in those threads regarding lag/latency, or you can just ask.
FYI, I it’s not as visible on the Arcana product page as it used to be, but if you pre-order Arcana + Diva (or some other options) you get a rather deep discount. The ‘Quantity’ drop down list shows the discounts. Don’t know if there will be a discount once Arcana is shipped.
@Hunt3r Regarding the statement on Diva, the Arc is not an AVR, though I suppose it could be more clear if they explicitly excluded audio equipment that only take HDMI-ARC/eARC. What Diva is doing is essentially just passing the normal audio HDMI signal from source to audio equipment. It does not convert that signal to HDMI-ARC/eARC.
Regarding the mention of ARC/eARC extraction, this means that the connection between your TV and Diva allows Diva to read the audio signal coming back through ARC/eARC signal, convert it to a normal HDMI audio signal, and send it to your audio equipment. Essentially, it’s the opposite of the main function of the Arcana.
Hopefully not confusing, but Arcana does have the ability to do ARC/eARC extraction as well, but instead of converting it to a normal HDMI audio signal, it just passes it on as ARC/eARC signal to the Sonos Arc.
Just announced today: the first 1900 units sold (pre-orders are close to 1100 now) will ship on September 15!
Here is my current setup: Samsung TV with no eARC. There are 3 HDMI In Connections and 1 HDMI-ARC on the Samsung "One Connect Hub" device vs directly on the TV. My Sonos Arc Soundbar only has one HDMI port, which is currently connected in the HDMI-ARC port. I have my NVIDIA Shield TV Pro connected to the HDMI port.
I ordered the HDFury Arcana, but it’s not clear how I should connect these devices. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
For any other newbie to HDFury Arcana, here is a link to explain the connections to your devices. Hope this helps others:
Joined their Discord yesterday. Now I see where all the information on here was coming from! They are really transparent and helpful. Had a question answered by HDFury themselves within a few hours.
Also regarding beta testers for Arcana, they are not under and NDAs are allowed and even encouraged to share their results in the discord channel. A bit different from Sonos, although it’s obviously a much different situation. They only have need a dozen or so testers really. I haven’t looked too closely, but haven’t seen any reported bugs.
@Highfalutintodd, are you one of the beta testers?
I am, indeed! My Arcana beta unit arrived on Tuesday and have been testing it since.
The good news is that it does what it says on the tin - it lets you get Atmos from external sources.
The only issues so far (that I’ve seen) have been regarding CEC control and, to be honest, I don’t particularly understand the intricacies of what all’s happening. What I CAN say is that HD Fury has been ridiculously responsive to concerns and have already pushed out no fewer than 5 firmware updates to correct issues in the last three days. For example, I was having an issue with the Apple TV remote not controlling the Arc volume, but a firmware update later all is well.
I’d say we’re in the “fine tuning” stage in that it absolutely works as intended, but CEC is such a mish-mash of poorly implemented functionality across various devices that HD Fury is having to see how Arcana works in the real world with a variety of equipment and adjust accordingly.
Regarding the CEC mess, can you confirm whether the commands from the Arc itself to turn the TV on/off work?
I’ve found that zip ties and a label maker have become essential materials in my setups lately.
Cable management has NEVER been my strong suit. Worse, those few times I actually DO take the time and effort to actually make things nice and clean, inevitably I completely end up ripping it all back out a couple of months later because I changed equipment. So, it all just gets hidden away behind the TV and we do. not. speak. about. it. ;-)
Lol. when I got my current TV installed over the fireplace, I let Best Buy do the install. At the time all my sources, power supply, playbar, ethernet switch, etc were sitting on the mantel. The installers though it best to connect one line to the TV, then zip tie to existing lines. The result was that I had a bundle of cables, about as thick as my wrist, with around 10 zip ties holding different sets of wires together. Took me quite some time to get cut those ties, without cutting wires, when I wanted to change things. Big mess.
But some Arcana news:
HDfury confirms they start shipping tomorrow. User manual will be available online as will current firmware.
Only one know issue at the time, as the CEC/ARC functionality on some Vizio TVs isn’t working. This DOES NOT mean you can’t use Arcana with your Vizio TV, @Airgetlam. It means that CEC controls between Arc and TV won’t work, so you won’t be able to use the TV remote to control volume via CEC control (use direct IR) or use voice commands to turn on/off the TV. The ARC part of this essentially means you won’t be able to use your TV internal smart apps.
Can someone please explain how the HDFury Arcana will enable an Apple TV 4k to successfully connect to a Sonos Arc and receive Atmos audio?
I understand (i think) how the Arcana splits the source HDMI signal and means that if you have an ARC TV (rather eARC) you will be able to connect….but how does it get around the main issue that Apple TV 4K only outputs Atmos in LPCM, and currently the Sonos Atmos can not receive LPCM Atmos audio?
I don’t have AT4K, and don’t fully get the issues that it has. My understanding, perhaps incorrect, is that AT4K sends DD+ for all of it’s apps except for Apple +. So Arcana would resolve issues of getting the DD+ signal from AT4K to the Arc, but not LPCM.
And to be clear, with Arcana, audio pretty much bypassing the TV or PJ completely, so the display device does not need to have eARC or ARC capabilities at all. Technically, you don’t even have to connect a display, though you won’t see anything of course.
Thanks for the heads up Danny...but I’m not a huge fan of the whole *censored* CEC spec, which seems to have too much latitude in it that allows each device manufacturer to make enough modifications to mess it up, so I just use the Harmony software to control each device individually, without relying on CEC to carry the commands.
I know, but I just wanted it to be clear. Also knew that you prefer your ATV4K over internal apps, so none of this should matter for your setup.
I don't use Discord so this thread has become my primary source of information about this product.
If you don't mind I would like to ask a few novice questions for those of you who are better informed.
1- For those of you who already received an early review copy, can you tell me about that process of receiving it? How long did it take to get it in the post? What country are you in and how much tariffs did you pay?
I’m in the U.S. Got it within 1 business day and didn’t get hit with any duties / tariffs / taxes.
2- it wasn't clear to me if the Arcana needs a separate power supply, or if can it draw power from the signal source (or say the tv's usb port). If it needs external power is there an on/off switch? What happens if you turn it off or unplug it- will signal still travel across?
Yes, Arcana requires an external USB-C power supply that is included with the device. There is no on/off switch - it’s either plugged in or not. If unplugged, you lose all signal. It will not pass video without power (I assume the same for audio but haven’t actually been playing anything while I unplugged it so would have to test to be sure).
3- I only need to link in my Xbox One X, no other devices. So if I run the X1X out to Arcana, and then the Arcana out to Sonos ARC and TV, will my TV remote still control the Sonos volume, or will i need to control the volume with the Sonos app? It's not clear to me from the product description whether this feature has been enabled.
Yes, this feature has been implemented and you should be able to do this just fine (with some caveats - Vizio TVs are being a pain re: CEC controls).
The thing that fascinates me is that I’ve not seen a single other company trying to jump in to this space. I’m delighted a HDFury did, and have my preorder, of course, but I wonder why we’ve not heard of any other potential options. It might be that these guys are just more agile than others, and capable of quickly filling this void, and maybe we’ll see others have a product in a year or two...
From what I’ve seen from following the company a bit lately, I think they were fairly well situated to respond to this rather quickly. That’s partly because of how they are built and partly because this sort of functionality is in their wheelhouse. It’s the sort of product they want to make.
I also think it’s because of how they do market research. Which appear to be nothing more than a guy who reads a few different forums to see what sort of problems people are having trouble with that HD Fury could possibly solve. They aren’t doing any formal surveys or looking at market research. The main HD Fury ‘front man’ has said several times that Arcana was a ‘community project’ that would not have happened if people hadn’t lobbied for it and spread the word about it in other forums. I’m not sure that other companies who would make this sort of thing have that sort of marketing chain in place.
As far as other companies coming up with their own devices, I don’t know. I can see someone beating Arcana on price, or building in an HDMI switch to simplify things. Don’t know how big the market it is for it, as it really only appeals to Sonos Arc users. It’s possibly a shrinking market if people buy more eARC TVs that don’t have issues. Then again, we may see more and more AV equipment that depends on eARC, creating more demand?