Hi,
If you have been following the lawsuit between SONOS and Denon related to the HEOS line of Denon products, you are probably aware that SONOS won two major court victories recently. The result so far has been that Denon has removed certain functionality from their App. Not surprising, Denon is instructing their customer service people to tell the public that certain functions were removed from the App due to 'market research'. This removal impacts me because years ago, it would seem I bet on the wrong horse. When I was setting up my house for whole home audio I went with HEOS rather than SONOS for one simple reason, I believe the HEOS speakers sound more in line what my use and taste in music. The SONOS line is setup more for treble and vocals whereas the HEOS line is setup more for raw volume and heavier bass. The HEOS App was always crap but worked most of the time, now it is kinda useless and is making it difficult to use the speakers.
I find myself in the predicament of not being happy with either company. SONOS is the one who sued Denon, and is the ultimate cause of certain App functions being removed. And Denon is the one who essentially sold me an illegal product. Now I'm stuck with a bunch of speakers an an App that was limping already but is now crippled. Denon seems uninterested in taking the blame to fix the issue and wants to deny they are responsible in any way, and Sonos is saying we are sorry for your trouble (even though we created it), here's a measly 10% discount.
I have lost faith in Denon and am interested in switching over to SONOS but considering they are partially at fault for creating this mess, I expect them to be a bit more helpful about fixing it.
So, finally arriving at my question, if I want to buy a large quantity of SONOS speakers where is the best place to get them for the best price? I would probably be buying a PLAY: BAR, two subwoofers, two PLAY: FIVEs, and two ONEs at the outset.
Any thoughts on the best avenue to proceed are greatly appreciated.
Thx,
Atari
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You have a very skewed way of looking at fault. The origin of the impact is Denon's actions. The fact is, if not for Denon's unlawful actions, Sonos would not have done anything, and no harm would have come to you. If you were in traffic and a tractor trailer ran a red light, t-boned a car and sent it into your vehicle, would you fault the driver of the car?
As to your statement that Sonos "have the audacity to then say hey would you like to buy some bread?" You are not locked into buying "bread" from Sonos. Bose, LG, Samsung, Bluesound, and others make a comparable product without having to unlawfully infringe on another company's patents. It's not like Sonos is forcing you to buy from them just because you formerly used Denon.
Sorry, but you are way off base here. The only one keeping you from your bread tonight is the one who stole it in the first place. They are liable for any damages, and you should be seeking reimbursement from them, not the aggrieved party. Denon is the one who breached contract with the consumer, not Sonos. JMHO.
As to your statement that Sonos "have the audacity to then say hey would you like to buy some bread?" You are not locked into buying "bread" from Sonos. Bose, LG, Samsung, Bluesound, and others make a comparable product without having to unlawfully infringe on another company's patents. It's not like Sonos is forcing you to buy from them just because you formerly used Denon.
Sorry, but you are way off base here. The only one keeping you from your bread tonight is the one who stole it in the first place. They are liable for any damages, and you should be seeking reimbursement from them, not the aggrieved party. Denon is the one who breached contract with the consumer, not Sonos. JMHO.
Is it still April 1?
We are unqualified to state that a judge and jury determined in a court of law that Denon and not Sonos were at fault? And to say otherwise makes us trolls?
Unique way of thinking. :?
Unique way of thinking. :?
This is probably the most childish thing I've ever seen...
SONOS owes you nothing, so there's no reason to expect them to offer you a significant discount on their products. You should be reaching out to Denon and asking them to reimburse you for lost features. This is not a necessarily a discussion about blame, but you are blaming SONOS.
Like jgatie said, buy different a different brand's audio equipment. You are not entitled to purchase SONOS products, or receive a discount on SONOS products.
SONOS owes you nothing, so there's no reason to expect them to offer you a significant discount on their products. You should be reaching out to Denon and asking them to reimburse you for lost features. This is not a necessarily a discussion about blame, but you are blaming SONOS.
Like jgatie said, buy different a different brand's audio equipment. You are not entitled to purchase SONOS products, or receive a discount on SONOS products.
That makes no sense. Say you had a good idea that you patented, and someone stole it from you, used it in a product and sold it. You're not going to sue that someone because you believe it has a negative impact on the public...the people that did not even buy you're own product? You'd just eat the financial loss?
No way.
Uhhhh, I believe there was a judge and jury appointed to say who was to blame. It took them less than 2 hours, including lunch and a delay, to decide. That is all the credentials I need to know.
I'm not sure how you can blame Sonos for aggressively protecting their patents, when actual patent infringement has occurred? This isn't like Monster Cable frivolously suing the Boston Red Sox over the use of the name Green Monster (a name which preceded Monster Cable by over 30 years). This is a company suing for blatant and obvious infringement on patents owned by them.
As to pricing, Sonos pricing is the same no matter who you purchase from. You can sometimes find slightly discounted items on Amazon, but that is rare. Mostly you will find uniform pricing from all dealers.
As to pricing, Sonos pricing is the same no matter who you purchase from. You can sometimes find slightly discounted items on Amazon, but that is rare. Mostly you will find uniform pricing from all dealers.
Actually, HEOS impacted their customers by their actions. If I had a product that was infringed on, I would go after the offending party to protect not only my product, but also my customers that are using it. Their customers are not my problem. Their customers are THEIR problem.
Are you in the States? If it were me, I would sign up for the Best Buy credit card and earn points you can apply toward future purchases. I've gotten a lot of my Sonos gear from them and it was deeply discounted because of the points. Plus they routinely have the Play:1s on sale.
Atari_Prime,
If I were Sonos, I would not even consider offering you any form of discount in this situation.
Denon, by all accounts, stole directly from Sonos and passed off those thieved goods or services as though they were their own. The claim here is against the thief...Denon... Sonos is just the original victim of Denon and all they have done is brought the offender to justice.
Those who bought HEOS, need to seek redress from Denon, the thieves, who mis-sold their product with its stolen parts.
I don’t see that Sonos has any moral or legal obligation to offer HEOS customers any discount whatsoever.
Take the 10% (extremely kind) offer and then go sue Denon for selling you a 'sour lemon' in the first place.
If I were Sonos, I would not even consider offering you any form of discount in this situation.
Denon, by all accounts, stole directly from Sonos and passed off those thieved goods or services as though they were their own. The claim here is against the thief...Denon... Sonos is just the original victim of Denon and all they have done is brought the offender to justice.
Those who bought HEOS, need to seek redress from Denon, the thieves, who mis-sold their product with its stolen parts.
I don’t see that Sonos has any moral or legal obligation to offer HEOS customers any discount whatsoever.
Take the 10% (extremely kind) offer and then go sue Denon for selling you a 'sour lemon' in the first place.
It sounds like there needs to be a class action lawsuit against Denon. Though I’m sure they probably included some bull in their TOS that prevents it.
But I agree, sonos owes you nothing. Take the 10% and be happy.
As far as buying them: my advice is:
If you have good credit find a good cash back credit card that has a 0% apr and a good sign on bonus and then buy at a store like Best Buy where you get bonus points which provide further discounts towards other products.
But I agree, sonos owes you nothing. Take the 10% and be happy.
As far as buying them: my advice is:
If you have good credit find a good cash back credit card that has a 0% apr and a good sign on bonus and then buy at a store like Best Buy where you get bonus points which provide further discounts towards other products.
No idea if it would be worth an individual suing but you can bet that there will soon be a class action suite brought against Denon if there is any hope of recovery. You may get pennies out of it but the lawyers will do quite well.
Sonos prices are supposed to be pretty firm but Best Buy is a pretty shady operation and you can possibly use that against them. Negotiate your bulk purchase of Sonos gear and a Best Buy warranty package, get the Sonos prices discounted as much as possible (maybe mention ebay) and agree to full price for the warranty. Wait 24 hours and then return the warranty for a refund.
This works because Best Buy pushes the warranty packages hard and the sales guy gets punished for not selling enough of them.
A caution about Best Buy though, they often unload "old stock" or "storage damaged" items on customers. Check your items to insure they are recent, not a couple years old and inspect carefully. Don't be me and get a three year old CR-100 that had been setting in a steel shipping container for two full Phoenix summers and had the innards completely rotted. It lasted less than a month before it failed with a burst battery and cracked case.
Sonos initially told me that I was out of warranty, that made sense once they told me the production date of my unit but relented when I faxed them the Best Buy sales receipts.
Sonos prices are supposed to be pretty firm but Best Buy is a pretty shady operation and you can possibly use that against them. Negotiate your bulk purchase of Sonos gear and a Best Buy warranty package, get the Sonos prices discounted as much as possible (maybe mention ebay) and agree to full price for the warranty. Wait 24 hours and then return the warranty for a refund.
This works because Best Buy pushes the warranty packages hard and the sales guy gets punished for not selling enough of them.
A caution about Best Buy though, they often unload "old stock" or "storage damaged" items on customers. Check your items to insure they are recent, not a couple years old and inspect carefully. Don't be me and get a three year old CR-100 that had been setting in a steel shipping container for two full Phoenix summers and had the innards completely rotted. It lasted less than a month before it failed with a burst battery and cracked case.
Sonos initially told me that I was out of warranty, that made sense once they told me the production date of my unit but relented when I faxed them the Best Buy sales receipts.
That makes no sense. Say you had a good idea that you patented, and someone stole it from you, used it in a product and sold it. You're not going to sue that someone because you believe it has a negative impact on the public...the people that did not even buy you're own product? You'd just eat the financial loss?
No way.
Not to mention having to subsidize the people who bought the other product, just because you decided not to be a helpless victim of patent infringement. Crazy stuff.
Indeed.
You are the one who brought up assessing blame in the lawsuit. You also seem to expect some type of compensation or discount from Sonos due to their their "impact on the consumer". As to your statement "not my lawsuit, not my place to judge who is right and wrong"? True, it is the court's and jury's place to judge who is right and wrong. In case you were not aware, the jurors took less than 2 hours to decide, including lunch and a delay, and they found Denon 100% wrong in their actions. It was a cut and dried case if there ever was one, and therefore, it is Denon's actions which "impacted the public in a negative way." Period.
I looked up the lawsuit. Denon is completely to blame. So many opportunities to do the right thing for it's customers and chose not to. Pitiful.
https://www.cepro.com/article/sonos_vs_denon_heos_understanding_the_patent_lawsuits
https://www.cepro.com/article/sonos_vs_denon_heos_understanding_the_patent_lawsuits
Bluesound don’t, apparently. They’re now being sued by Sonos for patent infringement. Since Sonos owns all the basic patents, perhaps none of the others is immune, either.
Rumor has it the functions were restored due to a deal between Denon and Sonos.
I'm interested to know what functions were disabled in the HEOS App after this?
Heh. I wonder how much of Sonos' income comes from licensing/lawsuits.
I simply blame Denon. Root Cause. They know what they were doing....
Winning a lawsuit usually pays a lot better than selling a license. Win in court and you have them over a barrel, when licencing you go too dear and they can walk away.
You are way off. Stop whining. Man up. Sue Denon, get your money back. Go buy Sonos gear. Period.
20 years ago I bought a mountain bike made by Devinci Cycle (a Canadian company). It had a manufacturing defect (hidden or latent defect). Their aluminum frame had a failure issue that posed a high safety risk. I sued them many years after for latent defect and won my case.
So go get your money back with Denon.
Another comment....Caveat Emptor
One should always check the manufactured date (that usually appears somewhere on the packaging) on any product that has an internal battery. If its' 2018 and the product was manufactured in 2013 then "let the buyer beware".
I almost purchased an item (last on shelf) from a local retailer at full retail until I advised them that the product had been manufactured 2.5 years prior. I still purchased the product at 50% off and later returned it within the window when it failed to hold a charge. Point being it's just not BestBuy where one should be weary; but any retailer regarding a similar type internal battery product.
As for this thread...Sonos v HEOS (Denon)...I agree, the OP doesn't seem to be playing with a full deck :8
Cheers!
As would any other competitor. That is very different from expecting a discount from Sonos because they "hurt the consumer" by being so bold as to protect themselves from a company who willfully broke patent law.
I'm curious as to what Denon had to remove from the app because of "market research"? What were they required to do to avoid future damages?
I would too.
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