Sonos Connect. Still worth buying???

An interesting insight just now from a translated from Chinese book I am reading, that had me immediately think - James Randi!
" Who are the frauds that practice pseudoscience most afraid of? Not of scientists; the best scientists can be fooled by pseudoscience and some even devote their lives to it. But pseudoscience is afraid of one particular type of people who are hard to fool: stage magicians. In fact many pseudoscientific hoaxes were exposed by stage magicians."

James Randi, for those who haven't heard the name, is a stage magician who became Audiophile Public Enemy Number One, when he announced the one million dollar Randi challenge to debunk all the fairy dust surrounding exotic audio cables.

Good scientists will of course also support the science that says that for all the fancy talk that audiophiles surround their cables with, an audio signal is just an electric current, and commodity copper cables of adequate thickness are all it takes to move it around in wired kit, with screening for low voltage signals. And they need not be specified to be OFC to the nth degree, as exotic audio cables often are, but that is pseudoscience at work:
"The high-end speaker wire industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are supposedly advantageous to audio signal transmission. However, conductivity specifications for common C11000 Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical. Much more expensive C10100, a highly refined copper with silver impurities removed and oxygen reduced to 0.0005%, has only a one percent higher conductivity—insignificant in audio applications." From Wikipedia.

But the good scientists are also too busy pursuing more important things than wasting their time on this extremely trivial subject and the nonsense that is spun around it.

All that surrounds the Connect in its DAC not being audiophile grade is just another manifestation of the above. Or, for that matter, that which surrounds the USD 35 Chromecast Audio, where the quality of its DAC is concerned.

Audiophiles even invest time and energy in "proving" that double blind tests do not apply in their little world.

Given that the Connect spec is 2 volts, this difference is the closest candidate for the quoted.
At least one ZP80 had its analog output measured at 2.12V [1]. The CONNECT may be different, of course.

My test was casual and very subjective, and I could easily have been fooled by not getting the volume quite right. You are saying we are certain that the AE does not employ any sound shaping at its analog output, so volume matching is indeed a likely candidate for the difference (if there even was one). The main purpose of the test was to determine (to my satisfaction, at least!) whether the CONNECT sounded any worse than the AE, or my external receiver DAC. For me, it does not.

[1] https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonos-zp80-zp100-wifi-music-system-measurements

Fair enough, and that confession may help others in the future that are in similar dilemmas because I am reasonably sure that those steps would have eliminated any audible sound quality differences from the Connect and its DAC.

That pretty much seals the Sonos deal for me!
Just curious: did you do the Connect changes we discussed a couple of days ago, as a way to see if the perceived poor sound quality of the Connect compared to AEX is addressed by these?

Kumar, your argument regarding Sonos play:1 pair and sub being of equaled sound quality at a less price point is not valid, at least not in my case.
My connect cost around $500.00 CA. A pair of play:1s and a sub here would cost around $1,300.
Although I do not have this experience, I can not believe that a pair of play:1s and a sub could sound any where near as good as my 7.2 receiver with channel separation and digital compression enhancer.
Also, a very large part of my music experience is high end outdoor speakers zoned out from my Sonos connected receiver. Loosing that functionality and paying $1,300 for less sound quality is not a good choice. The connect was a clear easy and cost effective choice to add flexibility to an already really great system.
I’m my case I was looking for a way to fill in some areas of the house not zoned for music. I deep researched a bunch of options and weighed the pros and cons of each, not the least of which was cost. I almost went with Yamaha musiccast, but Sonos work with Apple Music won me over.

I was referring to the latter lot; how to know for sure if any DAC in question has that issue before it announces that it has one in the test?

Good point Kumar, it would be really great if a potential buyer was warned in advance. While both Naim and Chord discuss the use of RAM buffers as part of their topology, it is not easy to find and know about it. I certainly learned the hard way a few years ago when i purchased an expensive chord dac to use with my sonos connect. Big Echo... instant grumpy face. Fortunately I was able to take it back.

The problem with feeding the Sonos digital out to a dac (as noted above) is the introduced delay that results in sound being out of sync with other sonos speakers. Depending on the dac, the problem can be increased.

Have fun :-)
This is news to me; there was no such delay in the DACs I used for testing. Had that been the case, the DACs would have been a lot easier to rule out via a very much shorter test than the one I ran. Sync issues with other speakers means the test would have ended as soon as it left the starting gate because out of sync music would not have been acceptable to me with group play abilities important in my use.
But if it is so, this fun is available only those who have the time, inclination and perhaps even the money necessary to cycle different DACs in search of the elusive SQ improvement chimera to ensure that they are not introducing sync issues while doing so. But credit to Sonos for leaving open the avenue to have such fun?

The tiny delay I mentioned is actually not a problem. It is only barely perceptible (just) once I place a sonos One right next to the main stereo (fed by Connect). It it so tiny that I consider it a no-issue at all. Once the sonos one is moved to another room then all issues (however tiny) disappear.

Dacs with RAM buffers though (eg Naim and Chord)... a different story.
Best

Also hoping to hear from others who may have been able to improve the sound in some way.
This in the end would encourage people who are in the same position as me to perhaps keep the connect. Not put others off buying it.


I love the convenience of Sonos in general and the Sonos connect in particular if you have a stereo amp and speakers. Like you I find the analogue out of the Connect does not sound as good as I would like. I have not personally participated in a properly setup ABX test and I am open to the possibility that I am a 'victim' of psychoacoustic bias but still... for now I have tentatively accepted what my ears and brain point to: The Sonos connect can be improved. To that end i have tried feeding the digital output to a number of dacs: Naim Dac V1, Rega Dac-R, Cambridge audio dacmagic, Arcam Sonlink, Arcam IrDac II, Chord QBD 76, Audiolab M-Dac+. I liked the first 2 the most. I also noticed that the optical digital connection fed to various dacs, sounded a bit less boomy to my ears. The problem with feeding the Sonos digital out to a dac (as noted above) is the introduced delay that results in sound being out of sync with other sonos speakers. Depending on the dac, the problem can be increased. For example the Naim dacs as well as the chord dacs all use a RAM buffer to help reclock the signal. This increases the delay between input and output and as a result the sound will be out of sync with other sonos speakers. The result is an unpleasant echo. I found the Rega Dac-R, Arcam dacs and CA do not introduce much of a delay (although a tiny bit is still audible). Unless you really pay attention you will not notice any echo with these dacs.

The ABX test is challenging to set up and it does have limitations (mainly sample size requirements and statistical significance attained) . An interesting discussion can be found here in case you want to read more: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/statistics-of-abx-testing.170/

Another link in case you fancy watching. Not an ABX test (more of an AB blind test) but here is a comparison between the Sonos connect analogue out and a few other dacs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGk7-mCwZX0&t=10s

Have fun 🙂

I satisfied myself at least that there is no meaningful audio quality difference between the analog outputs of the AE and the CONNECT..
My experience that confirms this dates back to 2011, when I was disappointed with the AEX stuttering far too often; I had no complaints on the SQ front when it did not stutter, and if I remember right, I was using an optical cable into the dual use jack on the AEX. If AEX had not stuttered, I would have stayed with it, since I had extra units lying around.
Having discovered the window of internet music, I then discovered Sonos that was recommended to me for its stability of streaming over AEX. Once I satisfied myself that there was nothing lost on SQ for music via my first purchase, a ZP90/Connect, comparing its SQ to what I was used to from my legacy wired HiFi, I added more Sonos units - the play 1 option did not exist at the time. At that time, since I had the Marantz SACD player with digital inputs, I was able to assess sound quality from the Connect both via its DAC and when that was bypassed in favour of the DAC in the Marantz. No differences.
I have since given away one Connect to my daughter with some of my legacy kit, and one remains to supply the external speakers, where the play units are not best suited.
I have no idea if anything different is done for headphones, I never use them.
While the Connect has been overtaken now by surrounding tech, from Sonos and others, it still shows how much Sonos got right when they designed it fifteen years ago. It is one of the solid nails in the coffin of CD players.

I’m if connection issue but in my experience airplay to an airplay express audio is noticeable below quality of SONOS Connect.

The thing about the Connect and why it no longer makes sense as it is, is because when it was released, there were not any alternatives to legacy kit for HiFi sound - neither play units or active speakers in general except some very expensive powered ones. At that time it was the only option if you wanted a Sonos front end and HiFi sound. That has changed.

As I have said already, no argument about a more featured Connect - my ideal would actually be a smaller unit that can serve Sonos play units and the Sub such that one can built a HT set up with it as cheaply as the present Sonos option, but with more capability and better flexibility in also serving stereo music because of separated front speakers.

But - if the implication that a connect is obsolete because same price as Pair of play:1s doesn’t compare here. To equal my current system the price of a connect is far cheaper then buying a new pair of play:5s and a Sonos sub.

Good point and it is well taken, that correction. But the Connect does become a bad decision if the equivalent HiFi system sounds only as good as a 1 pair placed with the same care, and with Trueplay run, because the Connect will cost more than the 1 pair.
There is however the possibility that the price of a 5 pair + Sub, less the resale proceeds of the HiFi system of the kind you have, will be less than the price of adding a new Connect to it. In that case, the 5 pair + Sub need not even sound better, just as good, to justify itself. And if the room and the legacy kit is such that a 1 pair + Sub suffices, this will make even more sense. There may even be a profit opportunity here, not just one of loss minimisation!
Or the 1 pair + Sub, less the resale value of cheaper legacy kit than yours, can make more sense than adding a Connect.
In both cases, one may need to be lucky to find an audiophile that loves legacy kit for reasons other than dispassionate ones, who will pay a good price for it.

Have you tried the 1 pair with the Sonos Sub? And more power does nothing for sound quality unless the sound levels supplied by the 1 pair + Sub are inadequate. Even in legacy hifi, there is no difference between a 40 watt amp and a 120 watts one unless the former is being pushed beyond its design limits.

Some may well prefer the 1 pair sound signature and depending on the size of the B&W units, a 5 pair + Sub may be in the right weight class against it.

I found the 1 pair + Sub to sound JUST AS good as a Harbeth C7 pair driven by 140 wpc amplification. Of course, with same attention lavished on placement of the former as if it was the latter for price.