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Apple Music lossless via S2?

  • 8 November 2021
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66 replies

K

Apple has since licensed the AirPlay protocol stack to those wanting to build compatible products. The implementation is therefore in Sonos’ court.

On the other hand integration of a service, especially casting direct to Sonos players, would require work on the service’s side.

Yes, but Apple still has to take the step of giving Sonos the license and thereby green light the implementation. 

On the other hand, casting from Apple Music does not work with Echo either. So it isn't just a Sonos thing from Apple. 

Corporate motives related to cost/benefit are rarely easy to discern. Often, they don't have any motive other than inertia.

PS: Spotify, as a service, casts to both Echo and Sonos. Amazon, who also sells speaker hardware, casts to Echo, obviously, but also to Sonos! 

G
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I experience a more airy, open and distinct dynamic sound.

And of course I know everything about "Kumar’s" countless and many times written standard, - but correct, “sound leveling” answer.

But in this case you perhaps can get around this sound level problem

 

Perhaps I have not understood the reply posted, but in response to the last sentence quoted would it not be simpler to just use the volume control?


The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

K


The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

 

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

 

D

That is foolproof

R
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Can anyone explain then what’s being played when I select Apple Music as a source from within the Sonos app?

K

@Gert_4 More on the louder lossless thing - while the link claims this to be the case, it is after all just one data point on the net, and may not be valid. However it does point out to the need to not automatically assume that sound levels from Apple lossless and lossy are the same to the extent needed for a valid comparison test.

G
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The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

 

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

 

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

K

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

But if the reason for getting a better sound is because the lossless files are playing just a little louder, then why not achieve the same sound quality via a slightly higher setting on the volume control when using lossy files - then, even if there is power consumption/heating problem of the kind you refer to, it becomes a non issue!

For comparative testing, the point I am making is that even if you are just switching lossless to lossy within the Apple app, sound levels still need to independently matched before coming to a conclusion on sound quality, with other blind testing disciplines also followed.

The question then is that when the seller of the service himself says that there is really no difference in heard sound quality between lossy/lossless, is this effort of testing worth the time and energy and deployment of sound level testing equipment?

Note that Apple Music Atmos is a different animal altogether. There the difference in how the sound comes across is night and day and needs no blind testing to be sure of the validity. Which of the two sounds better, still remains a matter of personal preference.

S
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The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

 

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

 

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

Just to be devil’s advocate, the iPad could be working harder because it’s converting lossless to AAC on the fly. That would require more computing power than just passing a lossless signal.

G
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Just to be devil’s advocate, the iPad could be working harder because it’s converting lossless to AAC on the fly. That would require more computing power than just passing a lossless signal.


 

Correct we do not know for sure.

Therefore, it would be interesting if there was someone, as Ratty has previously suggested in this thread, who could measure the bandwith on the AirPlay2 stream.

Ps. It is possible to try Appel Music 3 months for free.

K

Can anyone explain then what’s being played when I select Apple Music as a source from within the Sonos app?

Erm...ignorance is bliss?:relaxed: As is a glass of wine...to render all music the better.

And I am pretty sure that few, if any other, in the household you referred to, are fussed about this. As they justifiably would be if the UI changed and/or made it harder for them to access the music.

R
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Can anyone explain then what’s being played when I select Apple Music as a source from within the Sonos app?

Erm...ignorance is bliss?:relaxed: As is a glass of wine...to render all music the better.

And I am pretty sure that few, if any other, in the household you referred to, are fussed about this. As they justifiably would be if the UI changed and/or made it harder for them to access the music.

But that’s irrelevant as nobody else uses Music as I do.

L

Bonjour 

j’ai besoin de réponse svp

Voila je viens d’acheter 2 enceinte play3 au magasin lors de mon achat le vendeur m’a expliqué que je pouvais diffuser la musique qui était dans mon téléphone, mais je m’aperçois que cela est impossible. J’ai des musique que j’ai acheté via Apple Music mais je n’ai plus d’abonnement car j’ai mes musiques je possède un iPhone 11 et ils disent que c’est possible mais je ne trouve pas. Mes enceintes n’ont pas de Bluetooth et quand je vais dans le centre de contrôle et que j’appuie sur AirPlay rien. Comment puis-je faire pour écoutez musique qui est dans mon téléphone est-ce possible ? Y a t’il une application à télécharger car à entendre le vendeur c’était tout simple et j’ai bien expliqué que je voulais écouter la musique qui est stocké dans mon téléphone merci à vous et au plaisir de vous lire 

 

 

R
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256 AAC - and they’re not even embarrassed to say so lol.

Nothing to be embarrassed about - see the link where the head of Apple Music says that the difference between lossless and 256AAC can’t be heard in a blind test by him, and by other Apple engineers. And why they introduced it as an offering for no extra price.

https://djmag.com/news/apple-music-head-says-he-can-t-tell-difference-lossless-audio

As to those rare exceptional 1% to 2% golden ears he refers to, in the interview he also said that even these ears will need very very high quality stereo equipment to pick up the difference. But I can’t see even that happening in a typical domestic room, even a quiet one, because the ambient noise floor is too high to allow that very small difference to be heard. High quality headphones perhaps, where these room noises are completely missing.

 

 

Yes I’ve seen you quote this article quite s few times - Cue is like 60 years plus lol.

 

Joking aside, switching between AAC and Lossless / Hires I can definitely hear a difference on my Arcam / Linn equipment, in my listening room settled in to listen and focus on the music - which is how I listen to music most of the time. Using a Sonos Amp  in that mix may ruin this but I want the option.

 

Why offer it at all then and incur the associated bandwidth and server resource it entails if they think it’s pointless - it’s not like Apple to follow the crowd. In any case, everyone else has it they should just enable it comprehensively and stop this fence sitting nonsense.

K

Yes I’ve seen you quote this article quite s few times - Cue is like 60 years plus lol.

 

 

I am 60 plus too, and it is good to now be able to give up pursuing bit rates and just listen to the music instead. Back in the day when I had large Harbeth speakers, I still could not hear the difference between Apple lossless and lossy on them even late in the night, running them from Quad two box amplification fed by an unnecessarily expensive DAC. Level matching was not an issue because unlike what Apple seems to do that makes their lossless streams sound better, sound levels from both options were identical, when fed by a Connect to the same DAC, because both options were sourced by the Connect via NAS. Lossy music was bought and downloaded from iTunes, while lossless was ripped from CDs, as well as CDs themselves playing on a SACD player that housed the DAC.

This was all part of fairly long testing I did before I switched from legacy HiFi kit to Sonos, after being convinced that Sonos did not come with a sound quality compromise in exchange for its much better feature set.

Cue is just another data point that reinforces my belief, albeit a very credible one, even if he may be, as you say, 60 plus.

K

Another data point for others that may come across this thread:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

There are two places where I differ with what he says, the first is a minor point - where he says lossless from Apple is slightly louder and punchier. It ought instead to be: louder, hence punchier. And I was to flick the switch as he says between the two streams, and if the lossless stream is louder as he says it is, I know that it will sound punchier to me as well. But I could make the lossy stream to be just so too, by nudging the volume slider to the right.

The notable difference I have is where he says that he does not think that Apple lossless is as good as that from Qobuz as an example. If both services are using the same master for any given album, I can’t see why this should be the case; there certainly is no technical reason for this that I know of. Note though that I have never tested this is a listening session, but regular Spotify and Apple Music on Sonos, I have tested, many times - no difference.

The other thing to think about is the number of people that have threads here wanting the bits to be displayed to be sure they are listening to lossless. Or even Hi Res. Because they don’t get this information from their ears, it would seem.

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