Ability to play 24bit/96 files (like the competition: slimdevices transporter)
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Dear @ schalliol.
First off let me apologize for the (expletive) that seem to know all, or at least want to act as if they do, and like to brow beat anyone who doesn't agree with them, frankly it's a bit sad.
I don't think a new possible Sonos owner needs to be called a:
Whiner "You can complain about it like all the other whiners"
Or a Fool "Not for the audiophools, certainly"
Or a time waster "For us, this is non productive waste of time."
In any case if you're still around, the new-ish Bluesound system will do Hi Res.. It's very stable, and has gotten great reviews. http://www.bluesound.com
And again let me apologize for those here that for whatever reason believe that they know everything, that there can be no truth other than theirs..
And maybe you engineering folks might find this paper interesting.. it certainly meets all of your scientific requirements:
http://hiresaudiocentral.com/aes-award-winning-paper-says-cd-cant-capture-it-all/
First off let me apologize for the (expletive) that seem to know all, or at least want to act as if they do, and like to brow beat anyone who doesn't agree with them, frankly it's a bit sad.
I don't think a new possible Sonos owner needs to be called a:
Whiner "You can complain about it like all the other whiners"
Or a Fool "Not for the audiophools, certainly"
Or a time waster "For us, this is non productive waste of time."
In any case if you're still around, the new-ish Bluesound system will do Hi Res.. It's very stable, and has gotten great reviews. http://www.bluesound.com
And again let me apologize for those here that for whatever reason believe that they know everything, that there can be no truth other than theirs..
And maybe you engineering folks might find this paper interesting.. it certainly meets all of your scientific requirements:
http://hiresaudiocentral.com/aes-award-winning-paper-says-cd-cant-capture-it-all/
I'll assume you haven't read the Meridian paper, as it's behind a paywall at the AES, but have only read the biased opinion of its conclusions on a "hi-rez" touting website.
Monty Montgomery mentions Bob Stewart's earlier work in his superb white paper, along with this observation:
"Coding High Quality Digital Audio by Bob Stuart of Meridian Audio is beautifully concise despite its greater length. Our conclusions differ somewhat (he takes as given the need for a slightly wider frequency range and bit depth without much justification), but the presentation is clear and easy to follow."
https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html#toc_more
Monty Montgomery mentions Bob Stewart's earlier work in his superb white paper, along with this observation:
"Coding High Quality Digital Audio by Bob Stuart of Meridian Audio is beautifully concise despite its greater length. Our conclusions differ somewhat (he takes as given the need for a slightly wider frequency range and bit depth without much justification), but the presentation is clear and easy to follow."
https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html#toc_more
Here's a blind test for the true believers. Neil Young in 16-bit vs 8-bit. So much of today's pop music is so severly dynamic range limited, that 8 bits are sufficient to capture it all.
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit_NeilYoung.php
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit_NeilYoung.php
In any case if you're still around, the new-ish Bluesound system will do Hi Res.. It's very stable, and has gotten great reviews. http://www.bluesound.com
@schalliol since you say you are already using a Squeezebox you could easily upgrade your system with this: https://sites.google.com/site/picoreplayer/home
Minimal investment of a pi+hifiberry.
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit_NeilYoung.php
I scored 6 out of 10, using studio quality headphones through a premium soundcard. I challenge any else to truthfully post their results.
@chicks
Putting aside your snarky comments, and staying objective let me pose a question:
What circumstances or tests or whatever would convince you or others that HiRes files can sound better than 16/44?
Lets for the sake of discussion take the mastering or mixing out of the equation.. I think it's a given that a well produced, recorded, mixed and mastered album at 16/44 will sound better than a poorly done recording presented in a HiRes format.
So all things being equal what would it take to personally convince you (or others) that HiRes sounds better..
And if ones answer to this simple question is "There is nothing that can convince me, my mind is totally closed to even the possibility, because my rigorous training and experience says it can't, and I won't even consider the possibility" Than please don't bother answering.
Putting aside your snarky comments, and staying objective let me pose a question:
What circumstances or tests or whatever would convince you or others that HiRes files can sound better than 16/44?
Lets for the sake of discussion take the mastering or mixing out of the equation.. I think it's a given that a well produced, recorded, mixed and mastered album at 16/44 will sound better than a poorly done recording presented in a HiRes format.
So all things being equal what would it take to personally convince you (or others) that HiRes sounds better..
And if ones answer to this simple question is "There is nothing that can convince me, my mind is totally closed to even the possibility, because my rigorous training and experience says it can't, and I won't even consider the possibility" Than please don't bother answering.
I have no doubt that an up close recording of an Apollo spacecraft launch would benefit from the greater dynamic range afforded by 24 bits. I'd need a lot more power and bigger speakers, but wouldn't risk the damage to my eardrums.
If I were still 18, I might notice some minor benefit of the > 22khz captured range of hi-rez, but doubt it. At 60, I'm absolutely certain I won't hear a difference.
Understanding the science behind digital audio is hardly being closed minded; just the opposite, rather.
Listening to the marketing of "high end" audio makers and their proxies in the audiophile press, while ignoring the facts, is.
If I were still 18, I might notice some minor benefit of the > 22khz captured range of hi-rez, but doubt it. At 60, I'm absolutely certain I won't hear a difference.
Understanding the science behind digital audio is hardly being closed minded; just the opposite, rather.
Listening to the marketing of "high end" audio makers and their proxies in the audiophile press, while ignoring the facts, is.
Lets for the sake of discussion take the mastering or mixing out of the equation.. I think it's a given that a well produced, recorded, mixed and mastered album at 16/44 will sound better than a poorly done recording presented in a HiRes format.
So all things being equal what would it take to personally convince you (or others) that HiRes sounds better..
I would settle for a test that definitively refutes the results of the '16/44 bottleneck' paper. To me, that bottleneck is the most damning of all, because the test uses the same source, so mastering differences are not a factor.
Thanks NoBob, that's certainly a reasonable response..
I think this is the response given every time us "closed minds" types are confronted by the "open minds" who consistently deny/ignore proven facts like the placebo effect, human physiology, mathmetical theory, and audio physics. Yet they keep posing the same question.
I didn't realize that knowledge was static..Last I checked we have made progress in all manner of disciplines because great minds questioned the status quo..Maybe you should change your handle here to Saint Bellarmine LOL...:rolleyes:
I think this is the response given every time us "closed minds" types are confronted by the "open minds" who consistently deny/ignore proven facts like the placebo effect, human physiology, mathmetical theory, and audio physics. Yet they keep posing the same question.
Some light reading for you. The theorem without which digital audio wouldn't exist goes way back to 1933. Physics hasn't changed since then. 😉
The "great minds" of audio are mostly gone now (Peter Walker & Edgar Villchur among the most prominent). Today's great engineers aren't much interested in solved problems.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem
Great minds questioned the status quo, and then proved their hypothesis by conducting carefully controlled experiments which showed their hypothesis to be true. Which is all we are asking.
HiRes is very handy in the studio because it reduces the likelyhood of recorder noise and overload issues and minimizes computational difficulties while the music is processed during production. I have no issues with those who have the resources and record at 384/32. And, I'm sure that the audiophile community will drop 192/24 into the quaint history bin as they discover that 384/32 is available.
But, is it really necessary to render beyond 44.1/16 as we distribute to the livingroom?
If HiRes (higher than 44.1/16) in the livingroom is as superior as many very vocal advocates claim, it should be very easy to design a well controlled study and prove the point. I have an open mind and can accept good science. So far, no one has been able prove that we need to go beyond 44.1/16.
And it is possible that some really good science will show that small children and teens might benefit from HiRes, but older folk cannot. This would be awkward because the very young probably don't have the HiRes passion and cannot afford to purchase the required playback systems that could take advantage of HiRes. But, this would not be the first time that we will discover that mother nature is not fair.
But, is it really necessary to render beyond 44.1/16 as we distribute to the livingroom?
If HiRes (higher than 44.1/16) in the livingroom is as superior as many very vocal advocates claim, it should be very easy to design a well controlled study and prove the point. I have an open mind and can accept good science. So far, no one has been able prove that we need to go beyond 44.1/16.
And it is possible that some really good science will show that small children and teens might benefit from HiRes, but older folk cannot. This would be awkward because the very young probably don't have the HiRes passion and cannot afford to purchase the required playback systems that could take advantage of HiRes. But, this would not be the first time that we will discover that mother nature is not fair.
And more relevant to me is the fact that I can't hear any differences once mastering variations are taken away.
I can hear differences caused by speaker upgrades, placement or room changes.
Given the above, there is no reason why I would spend money on either the content or the equipment needed to play it. Or give up more relevant features available in the Sonos platform in that pursuit.
People that think different aren't wrong, but they aren't the Sonos target market at this time. And Sonos seems to be doing fine so far without them.
If that changes, Sonos will adapt - which is fine by me as long as I am not affected. Given the evident care that Sonos takes with the installed user base, I don't worry about that happening.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/03/sonos-drops-price-music-systems-high-resolution-wireless-mp3
I quote from the guardian:
As part of Sonos’s pursuit of music streaming, it has recently been looking at high resolution 24-bit music; the kind that Neil Young’s Pono Player and Linn records have been pushing about recently.
“It’s a big technical challenge for us, but it’s one we’ve definitely been working on,” explained Spence. “We’re looking at overcoming the limitations of streaming 24-bit in the home, as there seems to be a lot of momentum around it at the moment, so stay tuned.”
Hi-res audio files, also known as studio master tracks, are much larger than the highly compressed MP3 and AAC files commonly streamed and downloaded from Spotify, iTunes, Google Play and Amazon. Albums of studio master tracks can take up between 2GB and 5GB of space, while MP3s typically take up 5MB per track.
The increased file size and subsequent data rate required to stream hi-res music over a Wi-Fi network causes issues for bandwidth and technology.
But Spence is positive about Young’s moves. “Anything anyone’s doing to help bring high quality music listening back is a great thing,” he said.
I quote from the guardian:
As part of Sonos’s pursuit of music streaming, it has recently been looking at high resolution 24-bit music; the kind that Neil Young’s Pono Player and Linn records have been pushing about recently.
“It’s a big technical challenge for us, but it’s one we’ve definitely been working on,” explained Spence. “We’re looking at overcoming the limitations of streaming 24-bit in the home, as there seems to be a lot of momentum around it at the moment, so stay tuned.”
Hi-res audio files, also known as studio master tracks, are much larger than the highly compressed MP3 and AAC files commonly streamed and downloaded from Spotify, iTunes, Google Play and Amazon. Albums of studio master tracks can take up between 2GB and 5GB of space, while MP3s typically take up 5MB per track.
The increased file size and subsequent data rate required to stream hi-res music over a Wi-Fi network causes issues for bandwidth and technology.
But Spence is positive about Young’s moves. “Anything anyone’s doing to help bring high quality music listening back is a great thing,” he said.
Jesus, get over yourself mate, he said they're looking at it, he didn't say they would do it, he didn't even say they COULD do it, there's a lot of technical obstacles to overcome in order to implement it whilst still maintaining basic functionality, such as volume control.
What the status of the 24-bit requests over on ask.sonos.com? Not Planned or Under Consideration?
What the status of the 24-bit requests over on ask.sonos.com? Not Planned or Under Consideration?
Under consideration seems more like it from the posts above. Anyway, with all the ultra-negative talk and notion that there's no chance SONOS will implement, I sold my gear and bought a Bluesound system. I bet Bluesound, which is gaining momentum, wouldn't even exist as competition if SONOS would've implemented higher bit rates.
This will be my last post (notifications off). Thanks for all those who added constructive feedback!
This will be my last post (notifications off). Thanks for all those who added constructive feedback!
^ Please PM me with your Bluesound experiences. Thanks!!!
I for one am quite open to hearing a fair comparison of these with Sonos on all important aspects on this thread, particularly with respect to multi room single source audio - in sync or different music in each room.
I am not that interested in SQ comparisons - I think that with Connect/Connect Amp, Sonos can be as good as anyone can want it to be.
What the status of the 24-bit requests over on ask.sonos.com? Not Planned or Under Consideration?
This will be my last post (notifications off). Thanks for all those who added constructive feedback!
Actually, the status is officially 'Not Planned', and has remained such for a few years. Until it changes, I imagine the_lhc's analysis to be more reality than any other.
Yes that's what I thought but I couldn't be bothered with wrestling the Ask search function in order to find out.
Does Sonos signal new features via this route as a practice - where these have been requested of course.
The Sonos response in the interview is the classic way of answering a question in corporate speak, where you don't want to put out anything definitive unless on one's terms.
The Sonos response in the interview is the classic way of answering a question in corporate speak, where you don't want to put out anything definitive unless on one's terms.
So far, every new feature has gone from 'Under Consideration' to 'Planned' approximately 2 releases before coming to fruition. There has not been one feature that has changed from 'Not Planned' to 'Under Consideration' or 'Planned'.
That is quite impressive signalling discipline for features that are in response to requests. I am not sure who else does this - Sonos must be in rare company if not unique in this.
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