Zp 24/96

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1012 replies

E
Userlevel 2
I'd also like to see 24/96 playback, even if its only through the digital out.

while I'm voicing wants I'd like to see 24/192
R
Userlevel 2
I'd like to add my vote for high-res capability too..
Preferably up to 24/192...
If it cant be done by software, i'd gladly buy new Sonos ZP's hardware etc that supports it...

As said before - even if it is only "digital out"

Come on Sonos... Please wake up... 🙂
E
Userlevel 2
Sonos has, of course, woken up way back by simply putting up this forum and telling us time and time again that they read these forums and take our suggestions seriously. However, they also certainly consider these suggestions in terms of the wider context of the market they are trying to address. Sonos Forum members have demonstrated themselves to be generally, but not necessarily, more technical and likely to be members of the 'higher-end audiophile' category of user. As such, I am not sure we (and I am being kind to myself) are the market as a whole that they are attempting to address.

With this in mind, I am curious as to what % of the market (that Sonos is attempting to address as a whole) that forum members think want 24/96 support. I think it is quite small and that therefore Sonos has put this upgrade way down on the priority list. It might be easily to implement design-wise but there are a lot of other factors that would result from this that would take company resources away from other things they want to do.
Avee

With this in mind, I am curious as to what % of the market (that Sonos is attempting to address as a whole) that forum members think want 24/96 support. I think it is quite small and that therefore Sonos has put this upgrade way down on the priority list. It might be easily to implement design-wise but there are a lot of other factors that would result from this that would take company resources away from other things they want to do.

It would also put more strain on the wireless network. So maybe Sonos will just not do it because things should always work. It would disappoint customers with a lot of zones and less-than-optimum wireless coverage.
E
Userlevel 2
It would also put more strain on the wireless network. So maybe Sonos will just not do it because things should always work. It would disappoint customers with a lot of zones and less-than-optimum wireless coverage.

How does it put more strain on the wireless network? How much larger are the files that are 24/96 than the files that aren't?
K
Userlevel 2
It would also put more strain on the wireless network. So maybe Sonos will just not do it because things should always work. It would disappoint customers with a lot of zones and less-than-optimum wireless coverage.

Yes, the load will be higher, since the bitrate goes up. If we're talking uncompressed audio then these are the theoretical numbers (in kilobits per second):
16 / 44.1 (stereo): 1411.2
16 / 48 (stereo): 1536
24 / 96 (stereo): 4608
24 / 192 (stereo): 9216

This is without taking any error checking, word lengths, sub code or other protocol overhead into account.

So we're talking about roughly 5 Mbps for 24/96 and twice that amount if it were 24/192.

For a wireless-N like network that should not be of such a problem, with a theoretical maximum of 300 Mbps.
If you have 10 zones, all playing different hi-def tracks simultaneously, the first zoneplayer (the one wired to your network) must stream 9 or 10 times that amount of data wirelessly (depending if it is only a bridge or a player). Depending on the locations of the other zoneplayers, one or more of them also have to pass on a certain multiple of the data, and that can make your wireless network somewhat crowded.
I am not a wifi expert, so when only looking at the numbers, I'd expect no issues with streaming hi-def audio, although the highest possible bit rate is almost 7 times higher than the current 16/44.1 audio.
But I know by experience that wifi networks aren't that efficient / reliable when multiple nodes continuously exchange bulk data at high speeds, so there might be an issue there.
K
Userlevel 2
...Sonos Forum members have demonstrated themselves to be generally, but not necessarily, more technical and likely to be members of the 'higher-end audiophile' category of user. As such, I am not sure we (and I am being kind to myself) are the market as a whole that they are attempting to address.
With this in mind, I am curious as to what % of the market (that Sonos is attempting to address as a whole) that forum members think want 24/96 support. I think it is quite small and that therefore Sonos has put this upgrade way down on the priority list. It might be easily to implement design-wise but there are a lot of other factors that would result from this that would take company resources away from other things they want to do.

I think that the general Sonos purchaser is somewhat hifi-aware. Otherwise he/she would have bought a Philips Streamium :)
So in general, the market would be ready for a hi-def Sonos, as long as it is backwards compatible and you can mix both types of zoneplayers (standard-def and hi-def) in one environment.

Look at Squeeze Box's solution. A Hi-def player, able to play 24/96 (I'm not sure if it scales down) with decent gold-plated balanced connections. That's a (sur)real audiophile machine and works beautifully alongside the standard SqueezeBox types.

So my suggestion would be to offer both types of Zoneplayers, and give the standard-def zoneplayers the option to downscale to 16/44.1.

I'd blindly purchase a ZP-HD once it's on the market.
Majik

So my suggestion would be to offer both types of Zoneplayers, and give the standard-def zoneplayers the option to downscale to 16/44.1.


I believe the current hardware is technically capable of 24 bit (and it certainly is capable of 48k). I would suspect that IF there's a restriction (and I'm not saying there is) it's on the DSP bandwidth available to handle higher-res formats. Downsample will probably use more DSP processing than just handling the 24-bit files.

It may be possible to do 96kHz too.

Note that these rates would work with the internal DAC but would mostly only be sensible for an external DAC. Personally I think this would be enough as most people would probably want to use their own choice of external DAC anyway.

Cheers,

Keith
O
Userlevel 1
Badge
This would be a great addition! It is the only thing stopping me going out buying a pimp dac for my main system, a zone player for the bathroom and bedroom!!
S
Userlevel 2
I'm waiting for HiRES since my first download on linnrecords, 2006. And i'm waiting....

But now i want to go on, new dac, new amp...

Everytime i ripp my new CD in lossless flac, but there are files in Studio master quality.

Do i have to go to LINN? Yes, I can - HELLO - If you want to sell a ZP 91..? tell us, say YES.
There is an market. I beleave the SONOS philosophy is the right one, the product is good, the support is good, the people here - a wonderful community.

by the way, in 6 month i will take my mobile G1 to control the sonos, the amp volume, the shutter, the lights...

SONOS - Go this way, go on and we will follow
D
Userlevel 2
It sounds to me as if full 24/96 operation might be too much for the current network/hardware architecture to handle. I would venture a guess that most of the users who are interested in this hi-rez operation are (probably) mainly interested in having the hi-rez at their "main" system zone, while other zones could remain 16/44.1 resolution.

Would giving the option of having the system recognize and distribute 24/96 content to one zone, while leaving the other zones in their current resolution help resolve the burden on the wirless network to distribute this high resolution content? That would sure be acceptable to me.

DanG
MiTT
Userlevel 2
It sounds to me as if full 24/96 operation might be too much for the current network/hardware architecture to handle. I would venture a guess that most of the users who are interested in this hi-rez operation are (probably) mainly interested in having the hi-rez at their "main" system zone, while other zones could remain 16/44.1 resolution.

DanG

That's exactly how I would use it. My main system certainly has the resolution to take advantage of it - in fact my Esoteric setup already upsamples everything to 24/1536. The rest of my zones are fine at 16/44.1 - I doubt I would ever hook them up to an external DAC.

If Sonos offered a Hi Rez ZP I would buy it without question and just move the ZP90 I've got in my audio room up to the bedroom. I don't think Sonos would be loosing any market share or cannibalizing what they already have, they'd just be tapping into another segment of the audiophile market.
O
Userlevel 2
I would concur with what has been said. I would like to see support for hi-rez, even if it is one zone and even if it needs an external dac. That is the way I would use it anyway. I sense there are many audiophiles out there that own a Sonos or would like to buy one but are considering a Transporter or a Sooloos (if they can afford it). I would say Sonos has a finite time to capture this market before they lose it completely.
C
Userlevel 2
I also have been waiting a long time for hi-rez format playback even if it was only via the digital out... the credit card is ready to purchase as soon as released.

It may be taxing for the wireless network but I guess they could always downsample for wireless... not sure if you would really need high rez stream throughout the house hold, just for your main listening location.

Chris
J
Userlevel 2
I agree that the clock is ticking on this.

Had I not already set up sonos for the rest of the house, I wound have bought the logitech product for my main listening room. And I might just do that anyway. Must just not be enough $ in it to justify building i guess.
W
The following mods are available....

Cullen Curcuits...Basically a hardware upsampler board mod. Turns a ZP90's output to 24/96 or

Empirical Audio. Jitter reduction mod. Used with their pacecar. Keeps it a 44.1 hz.

I have one of each.:)
W
Userlevel 2
This is the kind of capability I'm looking for. I'm posting so Sonos can get an idea of the facilities that people need.
I am looking for something that will stream 24/192 files. It needs to be able to stream from my NAS over a wired network (wiring it up is my problem 🙂. I need it to pass the streamed music out through the digital out to my DAC. I need a small footprint and I'd like a convenient, portable and downright nice controller for it (hence my interest in Sonos).
Anything else is a bonus but if there's a Sonos unit that comes out with those features then I have my money in hand too.
Womble

P.S. Why 24/192? Because I am digitising my vinyl for convenience listening and doing it at the best quality possible and I will buy the best quality downloads too for that near-vinyl sound.
W
Looking back...I first posted this thread in Oct 07....that's nearly 2 years ago! In such a fast moving world, a lot has changed in 2 years!

I thought that considering Sonos is specialising in Audio distribution, that offering the best digital audio quality available would be an absolute given! I mean that is their market. Their gear is sold in hifi shops...not computer and electrical stores for goodness sake...

But that is the quandry you find yourself in all the time. Alas, the trials and tribulations of being a Sonos customer!

On the one hand you love their platform. How easy it is to use. The ability to play multiple different sources and tracks in multiple zones...all at the same time. What a sinch it is to add and move zones. The simplicity of the control and interface. The fantastic itunes integration.

On the other hand you are pulling your hair out. The lack of high res support. The lack of integration into other systems. No IR control. The false impressions left about subscription based music distributors in some parts of the world. The absence of features like a PC zone that customers cry out for. The stone walled silence about product upgrades.....

But I guess that's what love is. You don't necessarily have to agree all the time to be in love....and yes as sad as it is to say ('cause it's only a piece of technology)...it IS definitely possible to fall in love with Sonos!
G
Userlevel 2
^^^
+1

Could not have said it any better :D;)
S
Userlevel 2
And now the competition is getting even harder. Logitech launches a new Squezeebox with the ability to play 24/96:

Logitech® Squeezebox™ Touch

http://gizmodo.com/5301365/logitechs-squeezebox-touch-is-coming-with-touchscreen

Audio formats:
• MP3, FLAC, WAV, AIFF, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, AAC, Apple Lossless
• WMA Lossless, APE, MPC and WavPack supported through transcoding
• Some formats may require additional software installation Internet radio
• Support for MP3, Ogg Vorbis, and WMA formatted Internet Radio streams

Wireless interface
• True 802.11g wireless networking
• Support for 802.11b and 802.11g routers and access points
• One-touch setup (with compatible WPS-supporting routers)
• Supports WPA Personal, WPA-2AES, and 64/128-bit WEP encryption Ethernet interface
• Connects to any 100 Mbps or 10 Mbps network (with Auto MDX)

General:
• USB host connector for accessing music and photos via USB drive or USB key
• SD card slot for music and photos
• Supports sampling rates up to 24 bit / 96 kHz
• Stereo analog (RCA), headphone jack, digital optical, and digital coax output
• 4.3-inch 24-bit color LCD with capacitive touch screen
• Ambient light sensor to adjust display brightness according to environment
• Infrared proximity sensor to detect presence
E
Badge
And now the competition is getting even harder. Logitech launches a new Squezeebox with the ability to play 24/96...

Plus the new Cisco system launched at CES is also higher rez. Am sure Sonos is working on this and look forward to new hardware coming out soon. Hopefully 24-bit/192kHz.
Majik
Plus the new Cisco system launched at CES is also higher rez.

Err, is it?

The spec. sheet for this shows it as up to 48kHz (same as Sonos) and their published THD+N specs for their unit are such that it would be pointless supporting 24-bit formats (which, as I understand it, they don't anyway) as the additional bits would be lost in the noise floor.

Cheers,

Keith
W
Userlevel 2
I read a good on-line article on bit depth and sampling frequency, if I can find the link again I'll post it. Any way up, the noise floor was calculated to be around 20 bits which means that although 24 bits is beyond the floor, 16 bits is way above the floor and hence the valid reason for 24 bit samples. Of course different systems will have different noise floors but I'd be pretty horrified if my system was so noisy that 4 bits of resolution would not be missed - assuming the article is right of course.
buzz
I'm not sure that we always appreciate all of the implications of "the noise floor". Certainly for the purpose of fussing with our signal processing algorithms, there are boundaries, however, mammals can follow signals well into the noise. Observe the mother who will hear her infant's cry under impossibly noisy conditions.
R
Userlevel 2
i have stated on several forums for a long time that no one has been able to put together the complete package and i'm not sure why. it doesn't seem to be cost prohibitive, would make your unit 'future proof' and would give you real credibility in the audiophile circles. doesn't matter to most listeners? perhaps, but logitech really gained a lot of support for their full line of products when they put out their transporter, even if it was just a 'trickle down' effect by people that didn't buy a transporter. i think most people that care about sound quality think higher of logitech products than sonos products. it's good P.R.! anyways, the total package:

1. wireless
2. all major file types supported, including lossless
3. hi - rez capable
4. affordable

i just sold my squeezebox setup to switch to sonos - love the design, the interface, the fact my wife can figure it out. but the hi-rez support of the new logitech touch may be a game changer for me.
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