I just got my first pair of Sonos units - two Play:3's for the kitchen and bedroom and I absolutely love them. I'm not a huge audiophile, but the convenience and total plug 'n play nature of Sonos is what attracted me to it.
Of course the next thing that occured to me was how to get this connected up to my stereo.
What I don't understand is why the basic Connect is $349 while the Play:3 units are $299 each. I mean if anything it seems like a Connect is just a Play:3 without the speakers and amp? Why does it cost so much more for fewer features? Seems like the guts of the connect should be a $99 unit - I meant he appleTV is $99, and it does way more (At least in terms of technological capability - video/etc) than the connect.
To be honest I've been drooling over Sonos for years - and I know the quality is very high, but the expense of the units has always put me off. It wasn't until the Play:3 that I felt like there was enough bang-for-the-buck to justify diving in... I'm probably going to get at least 2 or 3 more Play:3's for elsewhere in the house, but it's going to be hard to justify the Connect until the price comes down further. It's still cheaper to just put a Play:3 in the same room as my stereo - it's small and powerful enough to just sit near my existing speakers.
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Can you actually point to where the Sonos website claims that you can adjust timing to compensate for any unknown digital delay in downstream equipment?
No.
It sounds like a case of caveat emptor.
No.
It sounds like a case of caveat emptor.
Here-below are the features reported from the Sonos website under the Connect feature list.
CONNECTS TO A HOME THEATER SYSTEM OR EXTERNAL AMPLIFIER Seamlessly integrates your home theater system and other audio devices into your Sonos Multi-Room Music System.
LISTEN TO THE SAME SONG IN EVERY ROOM, IN PERFECT SYNCHRONIZATION Play the same song in different rooms, simultaneously, without echoes or delays. Add or drop rooms from your rooms grouping and still be in sync.
Does it perform as advertised? NO.
On the contrary, it performs exactly as Sonos says it won't, with echoes, delays, etc. That's what happens if you connect your Sonos system to some strange A/V receiver from unknown brands like Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo and the likes.
End of story.
It performs as advertised with many, many receviers, name brands included. I myself own a 2 year old Onkyo, so I know. That said, other receivers can cause the effects you state; a fact I've never denied. However, for you to declare to the buying public that everyone who owns any A/V receiver ever made will always see a delay was both inaccurate and misleading, and I corrected you.
And that is the end of the story.
Now go ahead and post another childish tantrum. :rolleyes:
The end it soon will be if more tit-for-tat develops.
vannibombonato,
The feature you want doesn't exist. It may do at some time in the future, but there's clearly a long gestation period. If that's not good enough for you there's a ready market in second-hand Sonos kit.
vannibombonato,
The feature you want doesn't exist. It may do at some time in the future, but there's clearly a long gestation period. If that's not good enough for you there's a ready market in second-hand Sonos kit.
vannibombonato,
The feature you want doesn't exist. It may do at some time in the future, but there's clearly a long gestation period. If that's not good enough for you there's a ready market in second-hand Sonos kit.
I'm not whining for the sake of whining.
I've obviously reported this through support, opened a ticket, etc., so that developers are aware.
This is merely to warn people that there is quite a big problem in which they MIGHT occur, if this satisfies all the lawyers around here.
For the record, i used to be a huge fan of Sonos. I've invested a relevant amount of money in it. I've even had a friend of mine buying into it.
What i am doing is simply flagging a problem which does exist, which is relevant to the Sonos system, and that can affect the majority of users that plan to use one or more Sonos Play speakers in conjuction with their home theater.
If the above does not sound fair, i think we have a kool aid problem here.
No.
It sounds like a case of caveat emptor.
Sonos specifically claims i can connect their device to my Home theater setup and have it in sync. It's not true.
Now if you want to tell me that it's my and other guys' fault because i own a modern home theater A/V, that's ok with me.
My wish is obviously not for Sonos to fail, there are tons of great features in the system, i just hope they can fix it, and the only way they can is if they are aware at first.
Delay through AVRs is reported from time to time, and gets much the same responses each time (use 'direct mode' etc). As I pointed out, an adjustable delay feature's been requested for over 7 years.
But you came on this thread with the headline "Connect is a device that does not work anymore". False generalisations like that will get shot down.
If you really want to solve this problem, swap the out-of-sync Play unit for another Connect plus modestly priced amp & speakers. You can then insert a delay unit such as this. Other members have even resorted to using an outboard DAC with a second Connect, so as to use a digital delay box.
But you came on this thread with the headline "Connect is a device that does not work anymore". False generalisations like that will get shot down.
If you really want to solve this problem, swap the out-of-sync Play unit for another Connect plus modestly priced amp & speakers. You can then insert a delay unit such as this. Other members have even resorted to using an outboard DAC with a second Connect, so as to use a digital delay box.
Or, is it so hard to imagine a veranda with an A/V system in it, and a garden outside with some Play speakers?
Be careful about blaming equipment for any delays in this large "room".
Sound travels about one foot per millisecond. This means that if you are standing next to a speaker that is electronically perfectly synchronized with a speaker 70 feet away, that distant speaker will seem delayed with respect to the nearby speaker and one will perceive this as an echo. (this is due to the flight time of the sound) If one then moves to the other speaker location, then the first speaker will seem delayed. This is the nature of the physics.
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SONOS is only claiming that all players in a group will emit their signal at the same time. They cannot control acoustic delays or delays added by follow on equipment.
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By the way, the delay added by follow on equipment is not necessarily constant. More complex processing may require additional time. A change in processing may change the delay. If SONOS provided an adjustment, one would need to tinker with the SONOS adjustment as conditions changed in the follow-on equipment.
But you came on this thread with the headline "Connect is a device that does not work anymore". False generalisations like that will get shot down.
If you really want to solve this problem, swap the out-of-sync Play unit for another Connect plus modestly priced amp & speakers. You can then insert a delay unit such as this. Other members have even resorted to using an outboard DAC with a second Connect, so as to use a digital delay box.
Appreciate the suggestions, but i've been through them all and overall my opinion is that it's just all too complicated and expensive.
At the moment i'll just suck it up and eat the delay, hoping for Sonos to fix it. I think they will for a purely business reasons, Airplay is getting better and better, and i think they need to watch their back. At least that's my hope.
If as moderator you can drop another mail at it, you're more than welcome 🙂
Sound travels about one foot per millisecond. This means that if you are standing next to a speaker that is electronically perfectly synchronized with a speaker 70 feet away, that distant speaker will seem delayed with respect to the nearby speaker and one will perceive this as an echo. (this is due to the flight time of the sound) If one then moves to the other speaker location, then the first speaker will seem delayed. This is the nature of the physics.
---
SONOS is only claiming that all players in a group will emit their signal at the same time. They cannot control acoustic delays or delays added by follow on equipment.
---
By the way, the delay added by follow on equipment is not necessarily constant. More complex processing may require additional time. A change in processing may change the delay. If SONOS provided an adjustment, one would need to tinker with the SONOS adjustment as conditions changed in the follow-on equipment.
Buzz, i'm very clear on the audio dynamics, but here i'm talking about macro-delay, not slight delay which is driven by sizes, etc.
The way i see the solution is, in the sonos app, to have a slider associated to each Connect which adjust the delay to which the audio signal is sent from the Connect. Like from 0 to 150ms, where 0 is audio signal out in perfect sync with the Plays.
This way a user could adjust to its own set-up.
Obviously easier said then done, but i honestly think it's not something out of this world to implement. Also, i think the problem is going to get more wide-spread as more and more users link their Connect to newer A/V receivers.
Userlevel 1
Not about Airplay, I have no interest in Apple products.
Yes, you can airplay to any number of airplay enabled speakers/appleTVs/devices.
Last time i tried, it wasn't in perfect sync and that's why i spent a whole lot of money into Sonos, and now i deeply regret it.
So sell up buy your Airplay speakers and tell us how well it actually works.
I just don't understand why you keep coming back to Airplay. Does Airplay provide for adjustable delays between streams? I understood that it couldn't even keep two streams in sync reliably.
Actually it would have to be the other way round. Delay would need to be added to every zone grouped with the Connect. Since each one of those zones could also be seeing its own downstream delay then a robust solution would require separate adjustment for each and every player.
I didn't explain myself well.
Airplay absolutely has delay problems, and is by no mean a way to have audio perfectly in sync.
What i mean to say is that Airplay is free and as time goes by, is getting more and more integrated and developed. And there's a small company behind it which is pushing it.
Now, as in MY case Sonos can't keep the audio in sync, i feel not so smart in having paid big bucks for something i could have had for free.
That's why i'm talking about Airplay.
Correct, that's what i meant, i think it would be more user-friendly to have it graphically placed alongside the connect tab, and have the app add the delay to the relevant Plays in the group.
Yes but that's a simple case.
Suppose you had two Connects in a group -- each wired to AVRs with different downstream processing delays -- and a Play or two. The Connect with the 'slowest' AVR would have to set the pace for the Plays; the second Connect would need a delay equivalent to the delta between the two AVRs.
A solvable problem, if Sonos knew about all the external delays.
Suppose you had two Connects in a group -- each wired to AVRs with different downstream processing delays -- and a Play or two. The Connect with the 'slowest' AVR would have to set the pace for the Plays; the second Connect would need a delay equivalent to the delta between the two AVRs.
A solvable problem, if Sonos knew about all the external delays.
"My" solution is certainly not for Sonos to have the delays automatically set, but for the user to adjust.
It's the user who should adjust the sliders until it hear the music in sync. Sonos could only suggest to use a certain type of music, beat-oriented typically, to "test". Then it should be in the user's camp, no doubt about it. An average user would probably be able to have the problem 90% fixed in 3mins, to the point in which is not audible anymore.
This should naturally be placed in the "advanced" setup so not to mess with users that don't face the problem or don't have connect in their systems.
And, the AVR delay can depend on the processing setup. Changing the setup on one AVR will have a ripple effect throughout the whole system.
Airplay is free? Last time I heard, you needed an Airplay capable device to use Airplay. Is it now possible to convert non-Airplay capable devices to Airplay capable?
This is polemics for the sake of polemics.
Most A/V receivers today are Airplay enabled and don't need a 350$ device to have music streamed to them wirelessly.
Why do you have to defend a point which is not defendable? No-one is saying that Sonos is a complete garbage or waste of money, i'm just saying that with most modern A/V receivers the 350$ connect can't keep music in sync with Play speakers, which is exactly what happens if you don't use the 350$ device and instead choose to go the "free" Airplay route.
There are quality A/V receivers that for basically the same price of the connect give you an Airplay enabled 5.1 Amplifier!!!
For some it can be a non-issue and for others a deal-breaker, but denying the fact is pointless.
Most A/V receivers today are Airplay enabled and don't need a 350$ device to have music streamed to them wirelessly.
Why do you have to defend a point which is not defendable? No-one is saying that Sonos is a complete garbage or waste of money, i'm just saying that with most modern A/V receivers the 350$ connect can't keep music in sync with Play speakers, which is exactly what happens if you don't use the 350$ device and instead choose to go the "free" Airplay route.
For some it can be a non-issue and for others a deal-breaker, but denying the fact is pointless.
It was a serious question. I've not kept up with Airplay technology and I thought the original technology requirements may have changed. So I was not "denying" anything, nor was I stating a polemic; I was legitimately asking for clarification. But thanks again for the diatribe. :rolleyes:
The overall point is that the "Airplay" world is moving very, very fast, for the simple and obvious fact that Apple devices are behind it, so the rest of the electronics world obviously follows. Virtually every speaker coming out now is Airplay enabled.
Apple is pushing the technology, and i have the feeling that Sonos is progressively lagging behind: it used to be "overpriced", but Sonos features where basically exclusive, so Sonos was (is) free to set its prices at will with no consequences.
As time goes by, more and more of these features are available with much cheaper and efficient solutions, and that is what worries me as a Sonos user who has invested in Sonos equipment, which as we all know is very much "closed" (how much would i love to have a line-in in my Play speakers...).
Time will tell, but i have a feeling we Sonos users are still buying expensive CDs while the rest of the world is beginning to purchase MP3s.
Apple is pushing the technology, and i have the feeling that Sonos is progressively lagging behind: it used to be "overpriced", but Sonos features where basically exclusive, so Sonos was (is) free to set its prices as it will.
As time goes by, more and more of these features are available with much cheaper and efficient solutions, and that is what worries me as a Sonos user who have invested in Sonos equipment.
Time will tell, but i have a feeling we Sonos users are still buying expensive CDs while the rest of the world is beginning to purchase MP3s.
I only asked if by "Airplay is free" you meant there was a way to convert a non-Airplay device into an Airplay device without cost. You answered that (and then some), no need to repeat it over and over, we've got your point.
Oh and by the way, I'm not "defending" anything. Your wish for a delay is legitimate, and I "Liked" the idea at ask.sonos. My only gripe in this thread was that anyone reading your posts would think every A/V receiver ever made would have a delay, which isn't the case. That's all I set out to clarify, and why an argument cropped up, I'll never know.
I'd say Sonos is rather more 'open' than the proprietary Airplay. It may not be fully DLNA compatible but you can, for example, send from Windows Media to players as renderers. Sonos' use of SMB/CIFS is entirely open.
There is a Line-In on Play:5. It's Play:3 which was cost-constrained and lacks Line-In/Headphone and a second Ethernet.
i have a feeling we Sonos users are still buying expensive CDs while the rest of the world is beginning to purchase MP3s.
Excuse me? Not me. I've stopped buying CDs. My playlists seamlessly intermix FLAC library tracks from the NAS with Ogg Vorbis q9 tracks from my online Spotify collection. Surely MP3, never mind actually buying tracks, is old hat? 😉
If the direct mode on an AVR silences all but 2 speakers, I guess there is a fair point being made, with a lot more AVRs than 2 channel amps being sold now.
This issue will however not be faced by many AVR users in practice. A room covered by multiple AVR connected speakers will not need a play unit in it as well, and delays in the AVR room when in party mode, compared to Sonos units in other rooms/zones will not be noticed. I think Sonos would take these things into account in according development resource for this feature.
As to Airplay, I am not sure of the development roadmap for it to feature the 2 big Sonos differentiators. One, that only Sonos can stream different music from one source to different zones, and two, that Sonosnet is more robust in dealing with wireless audio than Airplay is presently.
This issue will however not be faced by many AVR users in practice. A room covered by multiple AVR connected speakers will not need a play unit in it as well, and delays in the AVR room when in party mode, compared to Sonos units in other rooms/zones will not be noticed. I think Sonos would take these things into account in according development resource for this feature.
As to Airplay, I am not sure of the development roadmap for it to feature the 2 big Sonos differentiators. One, that only Sonos can stream different music from one source to different zones, and two, that Sonosnet is more robust in dealing with wireless audio than Airplay is presently.
This issue will however not be faced by many AVR users in practice. A room covered by multiple AVR connected speakers will not need a play unit in it as well, and delays in the AVR room when in party mode, compared to Sonos units in other rooms/zones will not be noticed. I think Sonos would take these things into account in according development resource for this feature.
As to Airplay, I am not sure of the development roadmap for it to feature the 2 big Sonos differentiators. One, that only Sonos can stream different music from one source to different zones, and two, that Sonosnet is more robust in dealing with wireless audio than Airplay is presently.
I agree that in most situation in which you can imagine a big 5.1 or 7.1 setup you don't see fit a Play speaker or more, but that's not always the case unfortunately.
I have the fortune of living in a big apartment, an open space, and i have the TV area wired with a powerful 5.1 AVR with the kitchen area (which is in the same room) covered by Play speakers, which can't be used.
Same goes for my veranda, in which i have an AVR but just outside of it, in the garden, Play Speakers. Again, the two combined can't be used.
Airplay is overall as of now less efficient than Sonos, no doubt about it, but its also enormously less expensive.
My point is that i believe Sonos has to work hard to mantain its edge, and IMHO adding a customizable delay feature does not frankly look like a NASA programming effort. Obviously their business, their choice.
But as to my very personal and very little example, i'm not buying any more Play speakers or Play subs (which i had considered) for this issue, and others which have reported this issue are not buying any more Sonos equipment for the same reason.
I'm just a user and i have to suck it up, but i hope Sonos realizes that Airplay is moving very very fast, while Sonos is not.
The instant Apple decides that Airplay is worth some programming effort to make it rock solid, Sonos is dead.
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