Can people stop complaining about DTS?



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I beleive the industry failed Sonos. Such as there was obviously a standard set at one point to use dd 5.1 via optical out from tv as a standard. That many tv manufacturers decided to skimp on and leave off.
And there I was thinking that it was Sonos that "skimped" and left DTS (and HDMI) off!

You learn something new everyday. :$


Lol it's 2 a.m. and I'm laughing alone in my living room!
The TV industry has failed poor Sonos...
And the other guy answer... about Sonos being the one skimping on important features...
Oh I wish I had been the one giving that so truthful answer lol
Hahahaha! That's a good one sir, you made my day!

Geeze it's always good for the moral to read this Sonos forum. It sounds like half people who are posting are real customers who know what they're talking about (that Sonos is a very flawed product) and the other half that sounds like Sonos employees who don't have a clue how their Sonos product is flawed.

I agree, DTS and HDMI are features that have been standards for so many years, but I guess the Sonos guys are living on another planet. Because if the Sonos guys were living on Earth, where the hell were they when was released the Signature Edition of Ridley's Scott movie : Gladiator. Yes that old 2000 old movie with Russel Crowe that had DTS-ES soundtrack. One of THE movie that every, EVERY, real home-theater aficionados have watch to enjoy their DTS compatible system (and to test it).

Anyone who watched that movie, from that day, knew how DTS was lightyears ahead of Dolby. And Gladiator is only one exemple.

It's still the same today. DTS-HS Master Audio is giving the finger to Dolby TrueHD. There's no comparaison when you have a system that actually can benefit from lossless audio codec (by that I mean a system that performs with excellence in audio reproduction, not a system that adds Dynamic this, Audyssey that, DSP all the way baby, not a system that tries very hard to make me believe I'm sitting in the Kodak theater, or the Viena Opera).

If you want to know what DTS is, do yourself a real treat, buy "Joe Bonamassa - Live from the Royal Albert Hall" Blu-ray and listen to the DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack. Listen to it in 2 channel. Without any DSP or any other stupid marketing scam that actually destroys the sound. You will see Joe Bonamassa play at the Royal Albert Hall in London, you will feel you are sitting in the audience with all those people who lived that magic moment that night at the Royal Albert Hall.

That Blu-ray was out on the market in 2010. That's pretty close to when the Sonos Playbar was put on the market. I guess the guys at Sonos don't like Joe Bonomassa otherwise they would have walk on their hands head upside down in front of their CEO to be allowed to put DTS decoding into Sonos. Because even without lossless codec (yeah since Sonos was "smart" (cough!) not putting HDMI) standard DTS-ES is still lightyears ahead of Dolby Digital.

Or well maybe the other guy was right after all, Sonos is solely a multi-room streaming product. Period.
It's us, home-theater aficionados that wish Sonos was a stellar 5.1 home theater system. We wish Sonos was what is it not intended to be. Our bad. We should stop whining and start seing Sonos has an expensive multi-room streaming device. Period.

Euh... wait! Maybe it's the DTS guys who failed Sonos by not being able to convince them to make the Playbar DTS codec compatible???

Everyone on the DTS forum!!!
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I think this topic is frankly ridiculous.

Sonos has a lot of Home Cinema booths set up in retail stores worldwide, in which they advertise their expensive playbar-sub-two rears as a complete home cinema system. What they don't tell you is that if you buy one, you are severly restricting yourself in terms of content you can play on your system.

The core of the problem is not that dolby digital 5.1 does not sound good or immersive. It's that your Sonos system it is unable to play a lot of common audio sources that feed into a typical home cinema system.

For crying out loud more than 80% of Blu-rays have DTS audio tracks. If you have a 4k / HDR television, and you want to experience ultra HD bluray 4k content, which is vastly superior in terms of visual quality to what Netflix streams, unless you have a very expensive blu-ray player that transcodes, you will have either stereo or no sound.

This is also foregoing the possibility that streaming services will move to higher fidelity sound codecs such as DTS and DD TrueHD in the coming years (which they will). That would mean that unless you get a transcoding device, you and your Sonos home cinema system will be stuck in stereo.

If you are okay with getting stereo sound in 2018 from your $1600 Sonos Home Cinema system, be my guest. I'm not, which is why, like others, I'm trying to get my voice heard. We are locked in the ecosystem, switching costs are high, which is why Sonos is getting away with this kind of stuff.

I seriously do not get why you are complaining about people raising this issue. If it does not affect you, good for you. This issue is a big issue for alot of people though.

If you think Sonos is making the decision to not support modern audio codecs and connections out of practical, design and 'love for audio' considerations, you are kidding yourself. Sonos is gearing up for an IPO and has in the past year laid of plenty of employees. They are pursuing a fat bottom line on the short run. That is exactly why they are targeting the technically unsavvy affluent consumer, looking for a premium home cinema system.


Bravo, succinctly put.


What they said x100 ;)


What TellerNavynuts wrote... so true. Brilliantly resuming this argument in few words.
It would be great if DTS was a supported format!
I like how all of my favorite Blu Rays won’t play on my new $2K surround sound system. Or the fact if I wasn’t geeky enough to change the audio settings to PCM, I’d get no sound at all. I’m just curious what SONOS was thinking for the average consumer? I bet they’re filling a lot of jobs in their “technical support” department. Just buy the damn license ageeemwnt & give us the software update!! I should’ve bought the Bose. *sigh*
I like how all of my favorite Blu Rays won’t play on my new $2K surround sound system. Or the fact if I wasn’t geeky enough to change the audio settings to PCM, I’d get no sound at all. I’m just curious what SONOS was thinking for the average consumer? I bet they’re filling a lot of jobs in their “technical support” department. Just buy the damn license ageeemwnt & give us the software update!! I should’ve bought the Bose. *sigh*

Be happy you're still able to change your settings. I made the mistake of doing the 9.0 update and now I can't get at my settings.
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Criticism, or as you like to say "complaining", brings change.. or at least should, and people want, expect and deserve change. The system sounds great for a good portion of content, costs a premium but can't handle a basic media format that many still use to different extents. It'd probably cost Sonos cents or dollars on each unit to implement but I imagine they are losing out on many high dollar sales from those who deem DTS necessary. It'd not just be great for current customers who watch Blurays now and then but it'd be a good business decision. I hope Sonos stock going public will help push this.
This is a ridiclous argument to be having in 2018 when even $100 Visio soundbars play DTS. SONOS claims the Playbar is for home theater, BUT according to the Costco website (who is now selling the playbar) it will play all formats connected to it - including Blu-ray players. I called Costco and guess where they got that information? The manufacture - SONOS. What a pack of lies. So even doing research beforehand is misleading.

My 100 disc Blu-ray collection has about 60% DTS discs. Guess what - I get no sound unless its PCM. I have the sub, and 4 play 1's which are all great but the playbar is a total letdown. I would love to return it but SONOS is not willing to tack back a 8 week old product.

SONOS tells me there is no demand for DTS support - bull. I'm pissed off because rather than showing off my OLED TV with awesome sound I end up playing most movies thru the TV speakers and not my $2000 sound system.

I'm the sucker - and my wife reminds me of that every time I have to change audio output for DTS.
Oh by the way, I own an Oppo 203 which plays about every format made. SONOS recomended I buy another Blu-ray (Samsung) which will convert DTS to 5.1. Just what I want to do. Spend $500 on a blu-ray player $2000 for SONOS speakers and then go buy a second blu-ray player to hear half of my movies.

I agree with the above statement I should have bought the Bose.

I'm really pissed off about this! But SONOS doesnt seem to care one bit.
I am another user that would like to see DTS. They missed the boat with the Playbase, which was just a reshaped Playbar and again have failed to deliver with the Beam; although this has HDMI finally.

I suspect there may be a technical reason why they cannot deliver DTS, rather than licensing.

Just jumping at straws, but the increased bandwidth of DTS doesn't play nicely with the current code Sonos uses.
While I'm unwilling to give up on my "there's a licensing issue", I do also thing there's some potentials around DTS around an optical connection...although that's a bit more murky. I've seen websites that state it *is* possible, and others that it *isn't*. So, I can easily imagine that Sonos would have some issues around that aspect as well.

There's a lot of PLAYBARs and PLAYBASEs out there, without the HDMI interface. One wonders what the future will bring.
I'm one of those uninformed customers (despite working in IT) that foolishly assumed that any product marketed for home cinema in 2018 would, of course, support all common multi-channel formats.

To learn that the Beam doesn't even accept multi-channel PCM (let's not even speak of DTS, DD+ etc.) is simply shocking.

I still have a Yamaha AV receiver in my basement that I bought in 2003 (that's 15 years(!) ago) that has support for DD5.1, DTS, DTS-ES, and Multi-channel PCM. And all that was over Toslink (HDMI wasn't a thing back then). So telling people that there is *any* kind of technical reason why they can't at least support audio codecs from the last decade is just BS.
> To learn that the Beam doesn't even accept multi-channel PCM (let's not even speak of DTS, DD+ etc.) is simply shocking.

It is... and the playbar can't play DTS...
But even more, you can't connect Play:5 to the Playbar for audio streaming from your TV. Listen, nice concept, but totally not adequate or practical. Is it so hard to fix these things? Seen from the price point, it should.
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I whinge about the shortcomings of Sonos with DTS, No Airplay 2 on the Playbar and the lip sync issues with LG Oled TV's and often think I should have gone with Bose. I always thought the Soundtouch ST300 looked nicer than the Playbar.

However, I then look at Bose and the failed promises of Airplay 2 on any of their soundtouch line, no mesh network, no apple music and now the pathetic situation of the soundtouch line essentially being discontinued and the new wifi speakers being completely incompatible with any soundtouch product and am reminded how much better the Sonos eco system really is.

Think about it, you can have a Zone Player from a decade or more ago in perfect sync with a Sonos One Alexa speaker. Bose can't even manage to allow you to sync a bose soundtouch product bought new today with one of their new home speaker branded products which is what all their new wireless speakers are going to be branded as. Imagine how annoyed you'd be having spent thousands and already being forced into obsolescence?

I used Bose as an example as they are the most obvious competitor to Sonos, however you can use many brands in their place.
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I always find it odd that people want to stifle what other people might complain about. If you don't like it then don't read it rather than trying to control other people.
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It's less an issue for me since I almost always rip and compress my blu rays out to a media server as soon as I get them. I convert the DTS tracks to Dolby while I'm at it and all is well. However, it would be tremendously convenient to ocasionally throw a blu ray disk into the playstation (you know, the most common blu ray player on the planet), and have the Sonos system actually play the default surround track as intended.

I did know about this issue when I bought the Sonos Beam, so I abide by it. However, I agree that it's a little disingenuous to advertise the speakers as home theater capable when they can't play the most common audio codec found on most blu ray disks and many DVDs. I'm just not convinced by Sonos's reasoning here - if there's some technical reason why they can't implement the decoder then just come out and say so, but please stop pretending that their customers haven't been begging for DTS support for years.
I don’t want to stifle anyone’s opinion, but I would hope Sonos ignore DTS and choose to go along with Netflix/Prime/Apple/Google and aim for Dolby Atmos instead. Discs will likely become a thing of the past or a rare item and replaced by Digital streaming anyway.

I can see Apple opening up their own streaming movie service soon to run alongside Netflix & the others. It’s possible they may do that within the current pricing of their music service.

My hope therefore is that Sonos remains focused on the majority customer base and stick with where those users clearly appear to be heading.
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I did know about this issue when I bought the Sonos Beam, so I abide by it. However, I agree that it's a little disingenuous to advertise the speakers as home theater capable when they can't play the most common audio codec found on most blu ray disks and many DVDs. I'm just not convinced by Sonos's reasoning here - if there's some technical reason why they can't implement the decoder then just come out and say so, but please stop pretending that their customers haven't been begging for DTS support for years.

I'm not sure why making their reasoning public, beyond what they've already stated regarding streaming media, would be of benefit. Like I said, they did say that they're research suggested that most customers stream media, and therefore felt DTS was less important...and that reasoning has mostly been rejected. Why would a new reason now be acceptable to customers? I'm not saying I don't personally want to know all the details about the decision, I just don't see how telling us makes me or anyone else feel better about it.

As for pretending...have they? They responded from time to time, particularly regarding DTS on the new products Beam and Sonos Amp. I have little doubt that they are well aware of what customers are asking for.

To Be clear, I'm in favor of adding DTS if at all possible. I don't need it for myself personally, but in my opinion, it make their home theatre products less user friendly and deters sales. I don't have all the facts around that, just my opinion.

To be clear, I'm in favor of adding DTS if at all possible. I don't need it for myself personally, but in my opinion, it make their home theatre products less user friendly and deters sales. I don't have all the facts around that, just my opinion.
Danny,

I wonder what the cost would actually be to now licence the DTS codec from Xperi on every existing Sonos HT device and any future device and I wonder who would be asked to pay for that codec. I can’t see Xperi saying 'have this one on us'.

I’m sure those costs would somehow be passed onto the majority of users too, who may never, or hardly ever, use it, perhaps?

I’m not sure that the majority should be paying for the needs of the minority, so I would still prefer Sonos to ignore DTX and switchover to Atmos instead as I’m happy to pay for something I would be using.. I think that would then hopefully please the majority too and keep costs lower.

I would be happier, if there was the option to pay for a DTS codec add-on/update and Sonos/Xperi allowed the users to decide if they wanted to pay for that feature. I’m not sure what the actual costs would be though, given all the support costs too.
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Yea, I added "if at all possible" for the reasons you specified. I agree that retroactively enabling DTS would surely be cost prohibitive, but would it be so to enable it on a future new product? Would it work if you change the price of a playbar 2.0 to $750 to cover costs? Does it makes sense to have 2 versions of the playbar, with or without DTS? Does it make sense to have a digital pay system so customers can pay for the codecs they want?

I don't have answers. I guess you could say I have an opinion, but not that strong of one.

As for atmos, I'm not sure it's a big improvement with a 5.1 system. If/when additional speakers can be added to a HT Sonos room, then maybe,
Danny,

Yes indeed and just to say I only chose Dolby Atmos as being the road ahead, over DTS, because that’s where all the streaming services say they are now moving to. Not that it would really make any difference, until we eventually see the next gen Sonos hardware, like you say.
Hi, I found the Sonos discussions when Turtle Beach referred me for my problems getting DTS in my X41 and X42 headphones.

Normally Turtle Beach didn’t see it as a problem, because they thought all Turtle Beaches will be bought with Game Systems. And since Dolby 5.1 dominated on PS2, Xbox Prime, and Xbox 360 all Turtle Beaches were Dolbys. They assumed that everyone who bought them owned a modern game system, and PS2 and Xbox Prime had automatic, DTS->Dolby converters for DVDs. The Xbox 360 added an option to either "keep native" if your system can handle both Dolby and DTS, or all Dolby, if you owned a Turtle Beach or Triton, the 2 big headphone manufacturers at the time. I think the Xbox 360 is the only HD-DVD Player with DTS-> Dolby conversion. The Playstation 3 went one further, either keep native, convert all to Dolby, or Convert all to DTS.

If you want a 4K+3D player that can convert DTS to Dolby, so you can play DTS to Dolby on DVD, Blu Ray, 3D Blu Ray, 4K, and 3D 4K, the best choice is either the Xbox One S (if you don’t care about 4K gaming) or an Xbox One X (if you do). PS4 DOES NOT DO 4K.

And also, the whole world is not bandwidth endowed. If you want a place where I do some good for the bandwidth starved, by testing the games to see if they work in Bandwidth starved places, visit 56ok.org (full disclosure, one of my websites.) Yes there are some places that still use physical media, and not because we’re Amish. Good internet is not available everywhere. Plus some people want to own it instead of being at the mercy of the fleeting web which can stop carrying content on a whim. And forget finding 3D content anywhere except physical. I see NO streaming sites with 3D movies, let alone original series. And the only place to can be guaranteed a 4K 3D player without researching specific models is an Xbox One S or X.
Full Disclosure,

1) I am NOT a Sonos owner. I was brought to these forums by my choice of surround sound equipment: Turtle Beach.

2) This is going to be long. I've got plenty of time and lots to say. Warning you in advance, don't just post TLDR.

If you really love your SONOS equipment, but want to play content that is sound encoded in DTS 5.1-11.1 (or LPCM 5.1-7.1) then I've got a suggestion. stick with disc based Video Game Consoles. Even if you never buy a game for them, they will properly convert via HDMI and Toslink either DTS 5.1+ or LPCM 5.1+ into a Dolby standard (don't know if it's always a corresponding Dolby, or if if automatically converts higher DTS to Dolby 5.1) on DVD (PS2-PS4 Pro, Xbox Prime-One 😵, Blu Ray (PS3-PS4 Pro, XboxOne-One 😵, 3D, (PS3-4 Pro, Xbox One-One 😵 HD DVD (Xbox 360 with proper add on drive), 4kK (Xbox One S-One 😵 and streaming services. (Xbox 360-One X, PS3-PS4 Pro).

If you have a different brand of audio equipment that only understands DTS, on the PS3-PS4 Pro, and the Xbox One-One X, the process is reversible and you can convert Dolby to DTS. Everything as early as PS2 and Xbox Prime can also not touch the signal and leave it native if you do have a lucky sound system that deals in all 3 formats, you can get everything.

By the way Amazon video simply states 5.1, neither "Dolby 5.1" nor "DTS 5.1" (nor "LPCM 5.1") just simply "5.1". Does that mean it's a crapshoot? Some content in Dolby, others in DTS? Or is all Amazon content compatible with BOTH Dolby and DTS?

Now I might have a problem if I inherit my Uncles Laser Disc collection. Turtle Beach headphone only convert Dolby 5.1 to Dolby Headphones (maybe newer ones can do higher forms of Dolby) but even their DTS X Headphone models take as an INPUT Dolby based signal, yet OUTPUT DTS Headphone signals. (Is that schitzophrenic or what?!?!?) I swear on my uncle's future grave (if it comes before MY future grave. I don't know, neither of us are dead yet. Everyone has a future grave, except the dead who have a present grave.) if there are any DTS Laser Discs in my collection, I'll be looking for either a DTS 5.1 headphone OR an External DTS-> Dolby converter, because there's no way you can hook up a Laser Disc player to an Xbox One S, unless someone can find a S-Video+Toslink -> HDMI converter that preserves DTS audio. And THAT may not work because the HDMI input was meant for Cable/Satellite TV, which universally chose Dolby. When I tried the Wii U through the HDMI input, it did not convert LPCM 5.1 into Dolby 5.1, so it probably won't touch DTS. But even if it did, it introduces horrendous ping, and live gameplay trumps surround sound.

My upstairs media rom is so atrocious that in 2008 our TV installer said, based on our room shape, a hypthetical "communal Surrouns system" would cost 5-figures just to install. The last words to describe the upstars livbing room is"centered" and "symmetrical". That's when my curiosity was peaked out headphones. Back then it worked,,because the upstairs Blu Ray was a PS3, at the time, the cheapest, and a darn excellent Blu Ray Player, just like our first DVD player was a PS2. why Playstation didn't continue the patern imnto 4K was anyone's guess. When I described my situation to a ceertain Vice President of the company that owns DTS and HD Radio, he says headphones are my best solution, and there are no DTTS Headphoens on the market that are cheaper than a video game player, possibly none at any price point.

I wanted the PS3 because it as a 3D Blu Ray player, and I just bought a Playstation 3D display, the number one all time best selling way to watch 3D content at home,and that's a 24 incher. I still use it for my Xbox One S, "even though it has HDMI and Component inputs, the Display is designed to work with the PS3, the PS2, and a Cable or Satellite service. Sony does not support Xbox 360s, or any of the Xbox Ones." If that's the logic according to Sony, it shouldn't work with a PS4 or PS4 Pro either. Luckily Blu Ray Players were cheaper than buying another PS3.

Then something strange happened, DTS Movies sounded flat. Apparently Turtle Beach did not say, "Not intended for non-video game sources of audio, as it does not support DTS media without using a game machine's conversions". but I didn't notice it THAT bad until a Sony 4K+3D blu Ray Player was SILENT on DTS movies. Not even a 2-track audio through Toslink. What's worse is THAT Sony 4K+3D player doesn't support USB Headphones, even though it has USB ports.

If there's a ray of hope, my Sony Bravia form 2009 does output all sound coming into it through the Toslink output, and I can run THAT into my Turtle Beach. Whether it natively passes Dobly 5.1 via HDMI or downconvert to 2 track, I don't know. I did hear a sound on a DTS movie when using the TV Toslink connector when running straight from the Blu Ray to the Turthle Beach was silence in DTS Movies, but I would have to compare the upstairs room to the downstairs room where I know it does full DTS-to-Dolby conversion before I can judge whether the TV has a DTS to Dolby converter or not. Funny: My Dad owns a 2D 1080p TV, AND A 3D 4K disc player.

IF someone can make a DTS-> Dobly converter that can work with everything from Laser Disc to 4K from DTS 5.1 to DTS 11.1 it would make a lot of Sonos sers happy. It would make me happy. If a game can process polygons while converting DTS to Dolby, then there should be a less powerful chip that can convert DTS to Dolby. Heck it was used on a PS2 and Xbox Prime. Okay, it could be updated to handle DTS 11.1 and LPCM 7.1, but other than that, it's less expensive than buying a game machine, which has to do so much more. Sonos: make it happen. Both for your users, and for Turtle Beach users like me.

The last benefit is that if you're using a Sonos for streaming only, and everyone uses Dolby, then you don't need to purchase it, It's an extra you don't need. But for the rest of us, it fills a deep hole.

By the way, I was lookiong for a formatting option to hide spoilers to make it less TLDR, but this forum doesn't have that option.
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I don’t want to stifle anyone’s opinion, but I would hope Sonos ignore DTS and choose to go along with Netflix/Prime/Apple/Google and aim for Dolby Atmos instead. Discs will likely become a thing of the past or a rare item and replaced by Digital streaming anyway.

I can see Apple opening up their own streaming movie service soon to run alongside Netflix & the others. It’s possible they may do that within the current pricing of their music service.

My hope therefore is that Sonos remains focused on the majority customer base and stick with where those users clearly appear to be heading.


I'm sorry but you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. Dolby Atmos is a codec that is albout 3d positioning of sound, not actual sound quality. You can have DD 5.1+ with Atmos, or Dolby TrueHD. Similarily you can have DTS, or DTS MasterHD (quality) with DTS-X(positioning).

Dolby Atmos is only really useful when you have more than 5.1. Which you can't get with Sonos anyway. What would be the point of adding Atmos support to Sonos? None, currently. Before Sonos should think about adding positioning codecs it should add lossless codecs or even basic lossy DTS!!

I agree that eventually it will head to digital streaming, but lets be honest. There is awefully little 4k content available on the streaming services because of the bandwith it requires. Also none of those streaming services have lossless audio, for similar reasons. And for home cinema those things matter. Otherwise you might aswell watch on an ipad.

Also, we are buying Sonos for today, not tomorrow. And today not supporting DTS is a serious handicap for those of us that bought Sonos for home cinema.
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I'm sorry but you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. Dolby Atmos is a codec that is albout 3d positioning of sound, not actual sound quality. You can have DD 5.1+ with Atmos, or Dolby TrueHD. Similarily you can have DTS, or DTS MasterHD (quality) with DTS-X(positioning).

Dolby Atmos is only really useful when you have more than 5.1. Which you can't get with Sonos anyway. What would be the point of adding Atmos support to Sonos? None, currently. Before Sonos should think about adding positioning codecs it should add lossless codecs or even basic lossy DTS!!


Not to speak for Ken, but based on previous conversations I've had with him, he is very aware of what Atmos is. I don't think Ken means to say he wants Atmos dumped into the existing 5.1 speaker setup, but to add additional speakers as well as the codec. Indeed, with the current Beam and Sonos Amp products, you can essentially play a dolby atmos encoded source and down play it to Dolby 5.1.


I agree that eventually it will head to digital streaming, but lets be honest. There is awefully little 4k content available on the streaming services because of the bandwith it requires. Also none of those streaming services have lossless audio, for similar reasons. And for home cinema those things matter. Otherwise you might aswell watch on an ipad.


Good point. For those who really want to invest in a full home theatre experience, they likely won't be utilizing streaming service just yet (when discs are an option) and would likely want DTS as well as Atmos and additional speakers. Then again, a big part of that demographic will opt for a wired solution and aren't looking to Sonos to fill that role.
Most people going forward will be streaming from netflix, itunes and amazon and their content is in 5.1, so it looks like Sonos made the right decision bypassing DTS. DVD's and Blu Rays is not the future. I've got the 5.1 set up and all current content on netflix is in 5.1, no hassle of selecting different sound types from dvd menus for each movie, it just works. itunes is coming to Samsung TV's this year and when it does that is where I will purchase my movies from again all in 5.1 dolby sound. I see no reason to add DTS when the formats using it are dying out.

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