We need Audiophile Edition version of Port

Show first post

108 replies

K

a frustrating thread in which I’m trying to find some answers as to why my 2-ch system w/ a Sonos Connect into a Pro-ject Pre Box S2 into a Bryson 4B sounded so much better before I replaced all that with an Amp so I could use the 2-channels as rear speakers with an Arc and Sub. Even when I set the surrounds to max for music playback, the music just isn’t as enjoyable as it was before. Probably has more to do with impedance matching with the speakers (B+Ws) than anything else.  

 

 

 

If you want any constructive help here you will have to clarify exactly the signal chain via which the sound in the past, being compared against, was delivered as compared to the signal chain via which it is being delivered now. 

I
Userlevel 2

@melvimbe Honda Racing Fondation was formed in 1982 in order for them to be able to experiment and try out different things to build better cars and I would say that it was a good idea. Honda today build great cars. 
Bealive it or not Sonos is building audiophile gear. Everyone who buy more then one of their products is an audiophile. They can buy cheaper products but they choose Sonos because it sounds good and it is easy to use.
Would you buy Sonos speaker if it sounds like crap but it is easy to use and looks kind of nice?

K

 

You are basically speking in front of milion of audiophiles even you are not one and about things you havent even tried. 

That is a classic example of an ungrounded assumption.

K

@Ivan Jeremic : it isn't just me; there is not ONE reported controlled level matched blind listening test anywhere in the world that has been able to pick the difference in a way that is statistically reliable. 

If there is any such reported, I would be very happy to read it through.

It will not affect my listening/buying - since I don't hear differences, I don’t need to run after expensive streamers or DACs, but more learning is always welcome.

My source these days is an Echo Show 5 - USD 50 - and that is just as good as anything else I have used in the past, and with album art as well, it is a very convenient high quality music source to Line In jacks on my Sonos kit. 

R

Ivan - to be honest, I can’t see it happening. Whether you like it or not, Sonos is a volume manufacturer, but the audiophool market is (by comparison) a tiny one.

Sonos will probably want to leave it to the tiny specialists. It’s hard to be both a volume producer and a niche specialist, not least because in the specialist niche that you’re talking about, the marketing has to be completely different. It’s easy for a tiny, specialist company to do the necessary thing and start inventing things that don’t exist to satisfy this small group of people, but it’s hard for a big company to do that and maintain credibility with their “normal” customers (who will always bring in most of the revenue).

Here’s an example: How do you satisfy a niche market when most of the people in it don’t know what they want? Ask ten “audiophiles” what jitter sounds like, and you will get ten different answers. How do you manufacture a product on that basis?

So… IMO it’s something that Sonos will choose to leave to others...

Any self-proclaimed “audiophile” would use an external DAC which will reclock the signal, thus eliminating any jitter.  So exactly what’s the problem (besides not being expensive enough for bragging rights?)

I think you’re slightly misunderstanding. When we’re asking for a good digital output it is so that we can use it with a DAC, Jitter is about the static that the DAC is becoming connected to which then gets amplified and passed on through the amplification process. (It can be treated within the DAC But its better to prevent a problem than to remedy it after the fact). It’s also about being able to pass a good digital signal to the DAC regardless of the electrical noise that might come with it. Lastly it’s about having multiple options. I don’t have a Sonos streamer but my DAC has optical and usb inputs, so even if they made a streamer i wanted, it wouldn’t be compatible without those outputs. 

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +10

Really, your argument is like saying that Honda needs to start making supercars, so the supercar fans will tell others that the Accord is a good vehicle.

I think your point is largely a valid one, but the choice of Honda is a bit ironic, because the (original) NSX was considered to be a supercar, by the standards of the time! And it probably did affect their reputation for a time, though few people seem to know much about them now.

R

First of I want to say that I have been using Sonos products since 2009. Besides Sonos, I had a lot of gear but none of it could match Sonos's ease of use and sound quality (for the price). I have to come clean and say that I am used to using Sonos everywhere and I love it. 

As an audiophile, I was looking to replace my aging Sonos Connect with Port and realized from all the reviews that it does not have a better digital output. This was a show stopper for me and it is a show stopper for all audiophiles out there. 

You are missing a very important niche of the market. It is taken by Raspberry Pie implementations and Bluesound and Aurelia, not because they have better software or support for services, but because they have a better digital output. That is it. Nothing else. Everyone I have talked to said they like Sonos but the digital output is jittery. I have tried a lot of solutions and even they sound better than Connect over coax they are all not easy to use, do not have support for the majority of services, etc… I meet old people putting Raspberry Pie solutions together and struggling with boards and power supplies and software issues just to get good digital output. Audiophiles are people willing to spend a lot of money on a good streamer. 

Wired 4 Sound managed to mod Connect into a damn good streamer. There is no reason you can do it too! 

Sonos has the best software and the rest of the products are great but you are missing the main link with audiophiles.

Sonos Port Digital or whatever you want to call it

No audio inputs or outputs. Audiophiles will not use them. They suck compared to $$$$$ priced amps. Just Digital Coax and maybe, just maybe, optical output.

Get power supply clean and stable, maybe even consider having standard power cable, get rid of jitter, use high-quality SPIDF connector…

Make Sonos digital output sound great and you will sell a bunch. 

I will buy it first if you manage to do it for $899 or less.

I sure hope that someone from Sonos will take this seriously.

If anyone agrees with me please leave comments so we can get Sonos attention.

Cheers!

I want this so much. I use a one so in my bedroom and have a separates hifi in my living room built from Chord, Cyrus, PMC and MK components. I love both, my separates system is vastly superior though (but not for convenience). I want to buy a streamer, currently it would probably be a blue sound node I most want but Ideally it would be a sonos product. I want it to work on the same app as. My sonos speaker and would probably already have a sonos port if it’s outputs weren’t point defeatingly poor and an outright £400 sonic downgrade. People already buy the port though, they do so to use with hi fi systems they clearly love enough to buy a £400 accessory for, so Sonos already has enthusiast and audiophile customers, however I personally (and I know other people who feel the same) feel like I’m only willing to pay the high price for the convenience of a Sonos port if it sounds as least as good as not having one. It shouldn’t be a big ask. I also wanna say I don’t mean to bash on SONOS right now. I like them and their products, but there is a product they don’t make that I want badly, it’s an attainable and exciting possibility I’m discussing here, not a complaint. 

R

People already buy the port though, they do so to use with hi fi systems they clearly love enough to buy a £400 accessory for, so Sonos already has enthusiast and audiophile customers, however I personally (and I know other people who feel the same) feel like I’m only willing to pay the high price for the convenience of a Sonos port if it sounds as least as good as not having one. 

 

Completely disagree with the idea that any one who’s purchased a Port is in the  ‘enthusiast and audiophile’ bucket.  As you pointed out, if you already have an existing system that you like, then a Port is a good option, but you didn’t mention the cost difference between keeping your system and replacing it with Sonos home theatre setup.   As an example, I used to have a basic 5.1 setup with in wall speakers that I had a Connect (Port’s predecssor) connected to.  I did not want to spend over a thousand to replace that just to get the system part of Sonos, so the Port made a lot more sense.  It does not mean I’m an audiophile.

Likewise, if you want use a 3rd party multiroom amp instead of several Sonos amp, then you’ll want to use a Port.    If you have a turntable or some other component you want play in your Sonos system, but don’t need a Five or Amp, the Port is the way to go.

You’re correct that the convenience of the Port is a big plus, but it’s really about the convenience of the whole multiroom system and the Port is often a useful component of that system….even if doesn’t read the audiophile standards of a segment of the market.

Hiya, you make a lot of good points here, but I’m not saying that anybody who has bought a port is an audiophile, but lots of people who have, are. I’m saying that to invest £400 into an existing system suggests a level of love for old school hifi, for people who love their amplifiers enough to not buy a Sonos amp but rather keep their old one and buy the port dispite the price difference not being too drastic. But we live in a world now with high res music streaming from Apple Music, tidal, Amazon and soon to be Spotify for no extra money. Sonos are a great company who make great things but are being fast outdated (in this respect) and I think that for £400 a far better streamer could be sold to us, or for a bit more too. By this I mean that if it costs £400 for a streaming module then it should be a better streaming module than they put into speakers that you could buy between 2-3 of for the same price. A decent power supply that doesn’t produce so much electrical noise and a couple more digital outputs aren’t a lot to ask. High res shouldn’t be either but I understand that’s relatively recent and slightly more complicated to fit into an entire ecosystem. 

S
Badge

Just my 2 cents I have loved hifi for 20 plus years and as someone in this thread said I had stopped listening to music and started listening to the kit itself. Its a never ending pursuit of tweaking and upgrading which gets eye wateringly expensive. I started with sonos with a single play 1 for my wife for her work space years back and as time went on I have added more about the house and I have to say it brings back the joy of the music not the equipment. I have stopped the critical listening and accepted the sonos kit for what it is. I will say though that the port does not sound right to me I have one into a very good dac and it just sounds average compared to a raspberry pi plus a hat board at a fraction of the price but still the ease of use and integration is so good it cant be matched in my view. I cant see sonos ever offering an audiophile grade port as its such a small market compared to the their target market. Don't get me wrong id love one but it will never happen. I think the likes of aftermarket upgrades are going to be the only way if that's your thing or as I have done keep 1 good digital transport for listening in your main space alongside a sonos port. Finally with regards jitter maybe its snake oil I don't know but I borrowed a linear psu for the port and it sounded better with my dac anyway so maybe there is something to it(I'm aware that this doesn't resolve a digital issue though). Also my understating with regards to jitter/timing/clocking with spdif is that it is done before it is sent via spdif where as usb reclocks on receipt at the far end so for example my chord dac converts the spdif signal to analogue as it receives it errors and all where as it corrects a digital signal received via usb. 

ratty

The Port has drawn criticism for the DSP applied to the digital out when using Variable Volume mode. When using an external DAC it would make sense to switch to Fixed Volume, albeit at the loss of volume/EQ control via the Sonos controller.

S
Badge

The Port has drawn criticism for the DSP applied to the digital out when using Variable Volume mode. When using an external DAC it would make sense to switch to Fixed Volume, albeit at the loss of volume/EQ control via the Sonos controller.

I use it in fixed mode only so you do loose the volume and tone controls. Incidentally I think the dsp used in sonos speakers make them so easy to listen to and a sonos port connected to a pair of dsp powered speakers sounds better than through a standard dac amp speaker combo. Dsp is the work of the devil to some audiophiles but I'm all for it. If it sounds better to my ears I don't really care what kind of audio heresy has gone on to achieve it.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

Why is a separate DAC even necessary with a Port.  Just plug the line output into your preamp, much simpler less hardware and wire.  Is not the DAC a mature technology?

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +10

My experience is similar to Kumar’s. I’ve recently switched from a small setup of old ZP90’s (Connects) to a small setup of Ports. I’ve noticed no significant deterioration in sound quality - even though both ZP90’s and Ports are set to “variable” rather than “fixed” output (because I want to be able change the volume in each room from the app, rather than going into each room to do so).

In both setups I’ve been using a good-quality external DAC and power amps (by Cyrus, retail cost around £5000 total) and decent midrange (£4000) speakers, so if my ears were golden enough I ~should~ be able to hear a difference.

Having said that, I believe that a typical person’s audio memory lasts for a matter of seconds (7 seconds is the figure that I can recall) so if any change takes longer than that, the listener probably won’t be able to detect changes in sound quality with any accuracy. Needless to say, the update of my system from ZP90s to Ports took longer than 7 seconds, so perhaps I’m not really qualified to comment...

K

 

Having said that, I believe that a typical person’s audio memory last for a matter of seconds ( Needless to say, the update of my system from ZP90s to Ports took longer than 7 seconds, so perhaps I’m not really qualified to comment...

Both good points (although my memory of the research suggests that this time is less than 7 seconds) and give an insight into why setting up a robust level matched blind test is not easily done at home. Which means unfortunately that the field is left wide open to every kind of subjective comment that there can be about comparative sound quality. For kit from amps to DACs. Or even speakers in some cases.

However the specialist media has the resources to run these tests in a proper manner, but their reason for shirking from this is because 90% of what they write would then have no cause to exist, undermining their existence.

So, the merry go around goes on for those that get on it.

I am not one that rules out the effect of subjective influences on the listening experience, but I happen to think that Sonos users would be better served with a HiFi speaker that looks the part more than the 5 unit does. Or even the One, for that matter. Blessed with a well crafted veneered cabinet, both would look “HiFi” and therefore sound better to many users, more than any “audiophile” edition of the Port - which is already too expensive for what it does. Of course only as long as said user was able to overlook the Sonos name on it, which audiophiles look down upon as being too cheap to sound good to their imagined golden ears. So maybe this won’t work either!

PS: One byproduct of this thinking is the paradox that audiophiles think that the Port is too cheap to be able meet the standards set by their golden ears, while most Sonos users think that it is way too expensive for what it does.

I
Userlevel 2

Totally agree. As one smart man said once “You are listening to music not measurements” 

 

jgatie

Could you give us a analysis result which shows the power supply on the Port puts out “so much electrical noise” along with an ABX test which shows that “so much electrical noise” is audible to the listener?

Thanks!

S
Badge

My experience is similar to Kumar’s. I’ve recently switched from a small setup of old ZP90’s (Connects) to a small setup of Ports. I’ve noticed no significant deterioration in sound quality - even though both ZP90’s and Ports are set to “variable” rather than “fixed” output (because I want to be able change the volume in each room from the app, rather than going into each room to do so).

In both setups I’ve been using a good-quality external DAC and power amps (by Cyrus, retail cost around £5000 total) and decent midrange (£4000) speakers, so if my ears were golden enough I ~should~ be able to hear a difference.

Having said that, I believe that a typical person’s audio memory lasts for a matter of seconds (7 seconds is the figure that I can recall) so if any change takes longer than that, the listener probably won’t be able to detect changes in sound quality with any accuracy. Needless to say, the update of my system from ZP90s to Ports took longer than 7 seconds, so perhaps I’m not really qualified to comment...

Im interested in what you have said here. I'm trying to rationalise giving up my other streamers/transports for the ease of using sonos but I cant help feel that I will be short changed on SQ but your probably right after several seconds I wont remember and then its just a case of putting it out of my head. I wish sonos would offer a desktop solution as I'm trying to come up with a good home office solution. I currently use a pair of play 1s which sound fine/ok near field but i have no way of getting pc audio etc into them. Its this solution I want to get the sq right with whatever i do as its where i will do a lot of listening in a nearfield environment and its where I think I'm most likely to feel short changed on sq if it was an issue.

melvimbe

People already buy the port though, they do so to use with hi fi systems they clearly love enough to buy a £400 accessory for, so Sonos already has enthusiast and audiophile customers, however I personally (and I know other people who feel the same) feel like I’m only willing to pay the high price for the convenience of a Sonos port if it sounds as least as good as not having one. 

 

Completely disagree with the idea that any one who’s purchased a Port is in the  ‘enthusiast and audiophile’ bucket.  As you pointed out, if you already have an existing system that you like, then a Port is a good option, but you didn’t mention the cost difference between keeping your system and replacing it with Sonos home theatre setup.   As an example, I used to have a basic 5.1 setup with in wall speakers that I had a Connect (Port’s predecssor) connected to.  I did not want to spend over a thousand to replace that just to get the system part of Sonos, so the Port made a lot more sense.  It does not mean I’m an audiophile.

Likewise, if you want use a 3rd party multiroom amp instead of several Sonos amp, then you’ll want to use a Port.    If you have a turntable or some other component you want play in your Sonos system, but don’t need a Five or Amp, the Port is the way to go.

You’re correct that the convenience of the Port is a big plus, but it’s really about the convenience of the whole multiroom system and the Port is often a useful component of that system….even if doesn’t read the audiophile standards of a segment of the market.

Danny
melvimbe

 

Completely disagree with the idea that any one who’s purchased a Port is in the  ‘enthusiast and audiophile’ bucket.  As you pointed out, if you already have an existing system that you like, then a Port is a good option, but you didn’t mention the cost difference between keeping your system and replacing it with Sonos home theatre setup.   As an example, I used to have a basic 5.1 setup with in wall speakers that I had a Connect (Port’s predecssor) connected to.  I did not want to spend over a thousand to replace that just to get the system part of Sonos, so the Port made a lot more sense.  It does not mean I’m an audiophile.

Likewise, if you want use a 3rd party multiroom amp instead of several Sonos amp, then you’ll want to use a Port.    If you have a turntable or some other component you want play in your Sonos system, but don’t need a Five or Amp, the Port is the way to go.

You’re correct that the convenience of the Port is a big plus, but it’s really about the convenience of the whole multiroom system and the Port is often a useful component of that system….even if doesn’t read the audiophile standards of a segment of the market.

Hiya, you make a lot of good points here, but I’m not saying that anybody who has bought a port is an audiophile, but lots of people who have, are. I’m saying that to invest £400 into an existing system suggests a level of love for old school hifi, for people who love their amplifiers enough to not buy a Sonos amp but rather keep their old one and buy the port dispite the price difference not being too drastic.

 

Again, you are wrong here.  Your assumption that people are choosing between an existing 2.0 stereo receiver/amo  + Port  or the Sonos amp is not correct.  There are some, sure, and that cost difference is minimal.  However, I would argue that the majority are looking at replacing a 5.1, 7.1, etc home theatre setup or multiroom audio system  rather than a ‘simple’ 2.0 stereo.   To replace a 5.1 setup, I would need an amp  + 2 Ones at a minimum, (keeping exiting front speakers and sub) well over the cost of a single port.  And obviously, you would need at least two amps to replace a multiroom audio system.  That’s not considering those who only want an aux input into the Sonos system for a turntable, CD player, etc.

 

But we live in a world now with high res music streaming from Apple Music, tidal, Amazon and soon to be Spotify for no extra money. Sonos are a great company who make great things but are being fast outdated (in this respect) and I think that for £400 a far better streamer could be sold to us, or for a bit more too. By this I mean that if it costs £400 for a streaming module then it should be a better streaming module than they put into speakers that you could buy between 2-3 of for the same price. A decent power supply that doesn’t produce so much electrical noise and a couple more digital outputs aren’t a lot to ask. High res shouldn’t be either but I understand that’s relatively recent and slightly more complicated to fit into an entire ecosystem. 

 

It seems like you are looking at the Port more as a stand alone streaming device rather than part of a multiroom audio system.  I would agree that if all you want is a streaming box, whether you’re an audiophile or not, there are probably more logical choices out there.  But the Port isn’t just a streaming box, and those other options are not going to play in sync with other Sonos speakers or wirelessly send aux audio to Sonos speakers.

 

Danny
K

 

Most “audiophiles” are utterly clueless.  Thankfully, Amir is changing that by measuring this crap.

You think?! You cannot change what does not want to be changed.

chicks

 

Most “audiophiles” are utterly clueless.  Thankfully, Amir is changing that by measuring this crap.

You think?! You cannot change what does not want to be changed.

Manufacturers are being forced to take Amir seriously.  His site now has 2.8X the traffic of Stereophile (with its nonsensical “reviews” pushing over-priced garbage), with more engagement.  

 

chicks

Sonos are a great company who make great things but are being fast outdated (in this respect) and I think that for £400 a far better streamer could be sold to us, or for a bit more too. By this I mean that if it costs £400 for a streaming module then it should be a better streaming module than they put into speakers that you could buy between 2-3 of for the same price. A decent power supply that doesn’t produce so much electrical noise and a couple more digital outputs aren’t a lot to ask. 

 

T
Userlevel 3
Badge +3

I would love an audiophile port as Sonos ease of use is excellent and I believed all the claims on here that Sonos could deliver quality digital output. Unfortunately Sonos as hifi components consistently get a poor reviews for a reason as I recently found out. Replacing Sonos with another digital source has made a night and day difference to my hifi. A great lifestyle product but severely restricts the sound quality on good hifi to the extent the sound is so distorted it was physically painful to listen to. Replacing Sonos with a far cheaper option of a USB cable has solved the problem and greatly increased my listening pleasure.

 

I still wish that Sonos will bring out a quality hifi source as I’m a Sonos fan but I’m not holding my breath as while I’m sure they have the technical capability it is just not  their market which is fair enough. 

chicks

Replacing Sonos with another digital source has made a night and day difference to my hifi.

Uh-huh. :rolling_eyes:

C

Glad I found this thread.

Currently I have a modest system compromosing of NAD C 316BEE amp and Q Acoustic 3030i speakers with a Topping D30 DAC. Love the relationship between all three components.

Today I bought a Audiolab 6000A Play due to glowing reviews, in an attempt to get a ‘one box solution’. Dear lord! It is so bad! Not sure if the Audiolab didn’t like the Q Acoustic speakers but they sounded terrible - not to mention the god awful Play-Fi app. It is boxed back up and is going back to the supplier tomorrow.

 

So here I am again. I just want a good streamer that can connect to all my subscription services like Amazon Music, Local Plex, Soundcloud etc. I know the Sonos is perfect for that as I have a Sonos One in the kitchen and the app is just amaingly good!! If only I could implement this with the NAD in my front room.

 

Am I correct by saying even if I was to buy the Sonos Port and connect it to my Topping D30 DAC its not going to sound too good?

 

I’m just wondering if I already have the best solution out there. USB connection from my server to my DAC. Foobar on the server with the Android remote control app. Its just a PIA to VNC into my server to change from Foobar to Amazon Music and Soundcloud. Who would of thought in 2021 this would even be a problem.

Reply


Terms & ConditionsCookie settings