Airplay 2 Support



Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

103 replies

Read the Apple developer docs. They clearly say software only and no hardware required.
That’s authoritative.
Read the Apple developer docs. They clearly say software only and no hardware required.
That’s authoritative.


I stand corrected, though there were plenty of claims from posters here that they also had "authoritative" proof that Airplay 1 required no hardware. Glad to see that put to bed at least, and it still does not mean there aren't other legitimate reasons older Sonos units cannot support the protocol besides simple greed. Sonos simply has no history of abandoning older hardware when implementing new features.
Badge
I do not have the developer access so I cannot comment to that. I am assuming that DarwinOSX has access or has seen and read the documentation.

I totally stand behind Sonos if they are transparent and come out stating that there is a hardware limitation preventing it. Totally OK with that. When they designed the Play:1, there was not a notion that Apple would make AirPlay software authenticated so the devices were just not designed for it.

I just have to be hard pressed that Apple does NOT want as many devices in their AirPlay ecosystem and would require a special hardware device to enable it. I go back to the HomeKit authentication - a lot of devices were introduced suddenly with a simple software update. And these devices could be smaller than a Sonos speaker and required no hardware update.

Plus, maybe Sonos will not get side eye from Apple on one of their fancy keynotes o_O
I do not have the developer access so I cannot comment to that. I am assuming that DarwinOSX has access or has seen and read the documentation.

I totally stand behind Sonos if they are transparent and come out stating that there is a hardware limitation preventing it. Totally OK with that. When they designed the Play:1, there was not a notion that Apple would make AirPlay software authenticated so the devices were just not designed for it.

I just have to be hard pressed that Apple does NOT want as many devices in their AirPlay ecosystem and would require a special hardware device to enable it. I go back to the HomeKit authentication - a lot of devices were introduced suddenly with a simple software update. And these devices could be smaller than a Sonos speaker and required no hardware update.

Plus, maybe Sonos will not get side eye from Apple on one of their fancy keynotes o_O


Let's turn this around. What is it about preventing older Sonos devices from accessing Airplay 2 would be beneficial to Sonos? If you say greed, what is it exactly about Sonos' dealings in the past make you think they are prone to greed based decisions? They effectively killed their own very lucrative hardware controller by releasing phone apps. Every new feature ever released has been available on every Sonos device ever made. They bend over backwards to make sure older devices are not abandoned for new hardware, much to the chagrin of folks who want larger local libraries. The latest partnerships with other parties, Alexa and Spotify Connect, could easily have been locked out of older devices in order to be "greedy" and sell new devices, but they are compatible with every Sonos device ever made. So why now are they going to start artificially locking out devices in the name of "greed"? It isn't really in their DNA.

All that aside, I highly doubt you are going to see Sonos be transparent about their internal designs and the limitations therein. That also isn't in their DNA. Will that fuel the tin-foil hat brigade? Sure, but Sonos doesn't seem to care much about that fringe element.
I do not have the developer access so I cannot comment to that. I am assuming that DarwinOSX has access or has seen and read the documentation.

I totally stand behind Sonos if they are transparent and come out stating that there is a hardware limitation preventing it. Totally OK with that. When they designed the Play:1, there was not a notion that Apple would make AirPlay software authenticated so the devices were just not designed for it.

I just have to be hard pressed that Apple does NOT want as many devices in their AirPlay ecosystem and would require a special hardware device to enable it. I go back to the HomeKit authentication - a lot of devices were introduced suddenly with a simple software update. And these devices could be smaller than a Sonos speaker and required no hardware update.

Plus, maybe Sonos will not get side eye from Apple on one of their fancy keynotes o_O
It is available to the public although I do have access to developer docs.
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/avfoundation/airplay_2
Did Sonos say there was a hardware limitation? Haven't seen that but I don't pretend to know the internals of their firmware.
I'm not really clear about your point on Apple but the reason it required hardware before is firmware memory and processing was not as capable as it is now way back when Airplay was first introduced. They also charged a licensing fee.
Apple is pretty close to Sonos in a lot of ways, They sell Sonos products in their stores and web sites after all. I'd like to see them buy Sonos and deploy their developer resources on making the product better.
I do not have the developer access so I cannot comment to that. I am assuming that DarwinOSX has access or has seen and read the documentation.

I totally stand behind Sonos if they are transparent and come out stating that there is a hardware limitation preventing it. Totally OK with that. When they designed the Play:1, there was not a notion that Apple would make AirPlay software authenticated so the devices were just not designed for it.

I just have to be hard pressed that Apple does NOT want as many devices in their AirPlay ecosystem and would require a special hardware device to enable it. I go back to the HomeKit authentication - a lot of devices were introduced suddenly with a simple software update. And these devices could be smaller than a Sonos speaker and required no hardware update.

Plus, maybe Sonos will not get side eye from Apple on one of their fancy keynotes o_O


Let's turn this around. What is it about preventing older Sonos devices from accessing Airplay 2 would be beneficial to Sonos? If you say greed, what is it exactly about Sonos' dealings in the past make you think they are prone to greed based decisions? They effectively killed their own very lucrative hardware controller by releasing phone apps. Every new feature ever released has been available on every Sonos device ever made. They bend over backwards to make sure older devices are not abandoned for new hardware, much to the chagrin of folks who want larger local libraries. The latest partnerships with other parties, Alexa and Spotify Connect, could easily have been locked out of older devices in order to be "greedy" and sell new devices, but they are compatible with every Sonos device ever made. So why now are they going to start artificially locking out devices in the name of "greed"? It isn't really in their DNA.

All that aside, I highly doubt you are going to see Sonos be transparent about their internal designs and the limitations therein. That also isn't in their DNA. Will that fuel the tin-foil hat brigade? Sure, but Sonos doesn't seem to care much about that fringe element.


There is a recent example. The Play 1 cannot pair with the Sonos One. Sonos has said they may consider doing it in future so it must be possible. There has been a lot of hue and cry about it that's for sure.
Sonos is being much more open lately with direct Spotify, Roon, and Airplay coming not to mention the voice services. They are doing this because they have to. Too bad it took declining revenues and layoffs to make them open up. Now if they would just modernize their home theater equipment.
Are Alexa and Spotify Connect really compatible with every Sonos device ever made?
Larger local libraries can be done on newer equipment but not work on older equipment, there its no reason that's not possible.
A couple things about Airplay 2;
1. It does multi-room but there were ways to do that before.
2. It uses a much larger cache and streams faster than real time to eliminate buffering. I never had issues before with buffering using Airplay in a 5200 sq ft house. Those who did probably had a wi-fi network issue.
3. It is software only, no hardware or license required.
Sonos developer docs
http://musicpartners.sonos.com/?q=docs

There is a recent example. The Play 1 cannot pair with the Sonos One. Sonos has said they may consider doing it in future so it must be possible. There has been a lot of hue and cry about it that's for sure.
Sonos is being much more open lately with direct Spotify, Roon, and Airplay coming not to mention the voice services. They are doing this because they have to. Too bad it took declining revenues and layoffs to make them open up. Now if they would just modernize their home theater equipment.
Are Alexa and Spotify Connect really compatible with every Sonos device ever made?
Larger local libraries can be done on newer equipment but not work on older equipment, there its no reason that's not possible.


That is not removing or preventing a feature set from older devices, that is a standing policy of not allowing the pairing of unlike models. A policy which, if based on greed, would be callously ignored instead of reconsidered in the case of the Play:1. Or conversely, if you say the change of heart is due only to the hue and cry of lost sales threats, they would have said aesthetics and sound signatures be damned, let them pair old and new generation Play:5s (which at least have the same model name). So since they are listening today and didn't listen about the Play:5, something besides greed is at work. I posit that it is more in line with their philosophy that aesthetics and sound quality mean something, or else they would allow all sort of setups that look and sound awful instead of the standard audio configurations of 2.0, 2.1, and the variations of 5.1.

Yes, Alexa and Spotify Connect (aka Direct Control) are compatible with every Sonos device ever made.

And with your last statement you make my case; they are loathe to release new functionality that is incompatible with older equipment. Even if they can, and even there is a market for it, they try not to make any functionality exclusive to new devices if they do not have to. That shoots down the theory that they are only allowing newer models to support Airplay 2 out of greed, doesn't it?

There is a recent example. The Play 1 cannot pair with the Sonos One. Sonos has said they may consider doing it in future so it must be possible. There has been a lot of hue and cry about it that's for sure.
Sonos is being much more open lately with direct Spotify, Roon, and Airplay coming not to mention the voice services. They are doing this because they have to. Too bad it took declining revenues and layoffs to make them open up. Now if they would just modernize their home theater equipment.
Are Alexa and Spotify Connect really compatible with every Sonos device ever made?
Larger local libraries can be done on newer equipment but not work on older equipment, there its no reason that's not possible.


That is not removing or preventing a feature set from older devices, that is a standing policy of not allowing the pairing of unlike models. A policy which, if based on greed, would be callously ignored instead of reconsidered in the case of the Play:1. Or conversely, if you say the change of heart is due only to the hue and cry of lost sales threats, they would have said aesthetics and sound signatures be damned, let them pair old and new generation Play:5s (which at least have the same model name). So since they are listening today and didn't listen about the Play:5, something besides greed is at work. I posit that it is more in line with their philosophy that aesthetics and sound quality mean something, or else they would allow all sort of setups that look and sound awful instead of the standard audio configurations of 2.0, 2.1, and the variations of 5.1.

Yes, Alexa and Spotify Connect (aka Direct Control) are compatible with every Sonos device ever made.

And with your last statement you make my case; they are loathe to release new functionality that is incompatible with older equipment. Even if they can, and even there is a market for it, they try not to make any functionality exclusive to new devices if they do not have to. Shoots the theory that they are only allowing newer models to support Airplay 2 out of greed all to hell, doesn't it?


I never said they are not allowing Airplay 2 on older models out of greed. Even if I had your comment does not disprove that at all.
I don't even think we know which models will or won't get Airplay 2 for sure yet.
You are splitting hairs with your comment about pairing and that has nothing to do with opening up to allow other methods of accessing Sonos devices. It's obvious they would love to keep it closed down based on their history but have finally realized they can't as there are other alternatives now which are eating into their profits.
Read the Apple developer docs. They clearly say software only and no hardware required.
That’s authoritative.


I stand corrected, though there were plenty of claims from posters here that they also had "authoritative" proof that Airplay 1 required no hardware. Glad to see that put to bed at least, and it still does not mean there aren't other legitimate reasons older Sonos units cannot support the protocol besides simple greed. Sonos simply has no history of abandoning older hardware when implementing new features.


They are sort of correct depending on which version of Airplay (there have actually been three) you are talking about and if you mean rendering, DRM, video and or audio only. You can see the history here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPlay

I never said they are not allowing Airplay 2 on older models out of greed.


The post I originally replied to did. Take all my responses in that light..


Even if I had your comment does not disprove that at all.


Never talked about proof, only evidence to the contrary


I don't even think we know which models will or won't get Airplay 2 for sure yet.
You are splitting hairs with your comment about pairing and that has nothing to do with opening up to allow other methods of accessing Sonos devices. It's obvious they would love to keep it closed down based on their history but have finally realized they can't as there are other alternatives now which are eating into their profits.


Call it splitting hairs if you wish, but the capability is not limited by the age of the models. It's not like they allowed you to pair two Play:1 and not two Play:3, which is much older. As to your other point,, pairing two liked vs. two unlike devices is functionality internal to the product line, and has absolutely nothing to do with the closed nature of the product. A product could be as open as you want it to be but still disallow pairing of unlike models. Ditto for a closed product that allows you to pair anything at all. That is neither here nor there about the closed or openness, unless you are suggesting they should be pairing with a Bose?
You are really reaching now.
I don't care if the Sonos One plays with the Play 1 or not. if I did have the Play 1 I would have sold it and bought two Sonos One's. But there are a ton of people complaining about the Play One and Sonos One not pairing. Why do you think Sonos didn't provide that when they say they can and might at a later date?
You are really reaching now.
I don't care if the Sonos One plays with the Play 1 or not. if I did have the Play 1 I would have sold it and bought two Sonos One's. But there are a ton of people complaining about the Play One and Sonos One not pairing. Why do you think Sonos didn't provide that when they say they can and might at a later date?


Why? Because they don't look alike, the hardware is 95% different, and according to reviews, there are sonic differences. Maybe not as much difference as the Play:5 models, but it certainly fits their precedent. Hell, at least they didn't name them the same thing, that was the argument before for two speakers that are completely different in all ways. To take it to extreme, I'm quite sure you could technically pair a Play:5 and a Play:3, and there are people who would do it, but it would be aesthetically strange and sound would be compromised. Sonos' policy, with this and the configurations allowed, seems to be to save those folks from themsleves in order to protect the brand. The same applies here, with admittedly a stronger argument against because they are more similar than different. Hence them reconsidering their position.
Userlevel 6
Badge +14
More similar than different.
95% different.
Hmm.
More similar than different.
95% different.
Hmm.


I would appreciate it if you quote me in context, to whit "the hardware is 95% different". Sonos has said the only hardware shared between the two is the base and the power cord. . . . "hardware" . . . Got it yet?

Note the 95% is my estimate, though I will admit it is not exact. If you wish, I will give better numbers. Would you like that by volume or weight?
Userlevel 6
Badge +14
I thought both were in context and were referring to the hardware.
Equally, had anybody else (bar a select few) quoted a 95% figure they would usually have been met with a ‘How do you know this?’ response so assumed you knew this figure as fact and hadn’t just plucked it out of thin air and used it to make a point as you now appear to have done.

While there are reviews that say there are audible differences between the Play 1 and Sonos One, there are also others that say otherwise.  I haven’t heard either so don’t know just how different they do sound, if at all – but wouldn’t be surprised to hear there’s lots of confirmation bias happening when listening and would be interested in users and reviewers blind testing the two.  Even if there are differences, I’d wager they’re so small as to be unheard by the majority – or effectively eliminated completely after Trueplay tuning.

Personally, I feel they didn’t realise the size of the ‘backlash’ from the lack of stereo pairing functionality and now realise they will probably sell a whole load more with this option than without it.  Not keeping the sound signature the same or allowing pairing from the off is a mistake and we will need to see how this all progresses.  Most seem to feel the Sonos One is a replacement, in time, for the Play 1 – but, if this does happen then Sonos leave those Play 1 owners without an easy way of making their existing speakers into stereo pairs.  Adding the option will demonstrate further support for existing hardware.

I suppose we’ll see...
Here is the WWDC session on Airplay 2.
https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/509
Here is the WWDC session on Airplay 2.
https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/509


Watched a few minutes. So, you will STILL need your phone to source the music stream?! They've learned nothing from SonosNet or Chromecast? Amazing.
I thought both were in context and were referring to the hardware.
Equally, had anybody else (bar a select few) quoted a 95% figure they would usually have been met with a ‘How do you know this?’ response so assumed you knew this figure as fact and hadn’t just plucked it out of thin air and used it to make a point as you now appear to have done.



You assumed wrong; one statement was in the context of "the hardware is 95% different" and the other had no such context. Maybe I should have clarified for those who like to parse posts like frames of the Zapruder film:

1) The vast majority of the hardware is different between the two, sans the base and power cord. Whether that is equal to my estimate of 95%, who knows? I guess nits are for picking.

2) Some reviews say there are sonic differences, but that does not mean it is to the same extent as a comparison of other models.

3) Given the size similarities, same tweeter/woofer configuration, slightly different color schemes, and apparent sonic similarities, they are really more alike than different, despite the lack of shared hardware.

Clear enough?
Here is the WWDC session on Airplay 2.
https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/509


Watched a few minutes. So, you will STILL need your phone to source the music stream?! They've learned nothing from SonosNet or Chromecast? Amazing.


I like SonosNet but pretty much nothing about Chromecast but that's another subject.
Yes you use your phone or tablet as the source. Not an issue for me but I can see the point.
The Homepod will use it's wifi connection to stream music from the cloud no matter where it is controlled from.
Look at about 10:40. It says the content can be local or in the cloud. Hence the Homepod pulling from the cloud. I assume this can be done with other devices too.
Apple AirPlay2 (meant for another thread which I'll try to find).

Unlike the original AirPlay, AirPlay 2 doesn't require special hardware anymore, but is entirely software-based, which allows for companies like Sonos to add support to their devices after the fact
by https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16418944/sonos-airplay-2-support-apple-ios-siri-2018

BOSE's measley SoundTouch alarm clock will have AirPlay2 support ... yet my much more capable and more expensive limited edition all Black Sonos Play:1's (2) will NOT get AirPlay2 support because Sonos wants me to purchase a One?

I have NO inclination, nor incentive, nor desire to have a speaker that listens with a microphone beyond tuning the speaker in my apartment. Since I cannot connect Sonos One in HomeKit and use it as a remote microphone/speaker to an existing WiFi/LTE connected home security system, then no I don't want the Sonos One or a similar product.

Way to go ... you'll be loosing a customer, and excellent word of mouth in 2018. Should I choose a speaker with a microphone with voice control, it'll be one I can trust, can be used in HomeKit, Supports AirPlay2 and can be used as part of my home security system: HomePod thus far will fit that bill and seemingly competitively priced against the Play:5.

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/509/
Why do you think the Play 1 will not get Airplay 2?