Best answer by Kumar
View originalShould I replace my hifi separates with a Sonos system?
+2
My system comprises an all British set of separates, including a pre-amp and mono blocs. It still sounds great after twenty years, but things change and technology marches on. Whereas I used to listen to CD's, I now stream my music via AirPlay. A Cambridge Audio DAC is the interface between the hifi and Apple TV. I'm considering selling the whole system and replacing it with Sonos kit, principally for music but also to integrate and upgrade my TV sound. My question is, should I expect the Sonos units to be truly comparable to the high end hifi I've known for years?
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You are going to get along just fine here! 😃
Ha. I never spent more than £50 on cables because I couldn't detect any changes when auditioning them. I'm only too well aware of the great cable debate, but once magazines start making claims that USB cables sound different it's time to lie down in a dark room. It's hard enough to distinguish between a £200 Cambridge audio dac and a £3k one from chord! It's like hi res, the only HD tracks that were superior were the ones remastered in 24 bit!
Stever750,
Although you can set up a fine audiophile level system with a Connect and your choice of amp/speakers (though self-proclaimed snake oil believing "audiophiles" will disagree), Sonos is the perfect system for recovering audiophiles. It gives you access to more music than ever before at the tip of your fingers (or very soon, the sound of your voice) and it eliminates all the room dominating speakers, the $4000 wires, the $10,000 separates, the cocobolo wood feet, the speaker lead risers, and other blah-blah-blah of audiophilia, and leaves you with nothing but the music. A theme you will see in here when the occasional "audiophile" wanders in to tweak us about the latest hires codec or "jitter free" CD transport is "Audiophiles listen to gear, we listen to music".
Welcome to the fold.
Although you can set up a fine audiophile level system with a Connect and your choice of amp/speakers (though self-proclaimed snake oil believing "audiophiles" will disagree), Sonos is the perfect system for recovering audiophiles. It gives you access to more music than ever before at the tip of your fingers (or very soon, the sound of your voice) and it eliminates all the room dominating speakers, the $4000 wires, the $10,000 separates, the cocobolo wood feet, the speaker lead risers, and other blah-blah-blah of audiophilia, and leaves you with nothing but the music. A theme you will see in here when the occasional "audiophile" wanders in to tweak us about the latest hires codec or "jitter free" CD transport is "Audiophiles listen to gear, we listen to music".
Welcome to the fold.
I'm in the same position! I've made the leap of faith though, and started dismantling and selling my extremely capable but expensive and massively compromised separates system. The amp is already sold, the monster ATC floorstanders lounging on ebay. In my case, a major standing wave problem that amount of room tweaking and adding a monster JB Audio sub could fix, so on a large suspended 2nd floor room I could feel sub 50Hz but couldn't hear it sat in my listening position. Like you, I have spent less and less time "critical listening", and find myself using Spotify more and more, and if I'm honest most of the time couldn't easily distinguish between high quality lossy Spotify and lossless FLAC streaming bit perfect. If the sonos system is similar to my old NAD and B&W 602 sound then I'll be more than happy, especially as I can move the speakers virtually anywhere in the house if I feel like a bit of that critical listening thing!
And some more learnings along the way:
1. Speaker placement remains important to obtain the best results - the heard sound is a result of the speaker+room interaction which is very dependent on this. While play units are easy to place anywhere, getting their full potential requires similar care that is taken over "hifi" speakers. However since for the most part play units are smaller in size than the latter, this is much more easily done.
2. All the talk about hi definition music, and even about lossless ripped CDs is smoke and mirrors. It is all down to the mastering quality where audible differences are concerned. I obtain perfectly good results from well mastered/produced music that has been bought on iTunes - in 256 kbps lossy format - as an example.
3. The brain is great servant but a lousy master. If let loose to actively look for defects in the music being heard, that is all it will do.
4. Finally, the best audio quality tweak I have found till now is having the lights down low, and a glass or two of wine. Or any other spirit that floats your boat.
1. Speaker placement remains important to obtain the best results - the heard sound is a result of the speaker+room interaction which is very dependent on this. While play units are easy to place anywhere, getting their full potential requires similar care that is taken over "hifi" speakers. However since for the most part play units are smaller in size than the latter, this is much more easily done.
2. All the talk about hi definition music, and even about lossless ripped CDs is smoke and mirrors. It is all down to the mastering quality where audible differences are concerned. I obtain perfectly good results from well mastered/produced music that has been bought on iTunes - in 256 kbps lossy format - as an example.
3. The brain is great servant but a lousy master. If let loose to actively look for defects in the music being heard, that is all it will do.
4. Finally, the best audio quality tweak I have found till now is having the lights down low, and a glass or two of wine. Or any other spirit that floats your boat.
Those are very similar to the reasons I ended up finally selling a SACD player+Quad amplification+Harbeth speaker set up even though the AV thing never had any appeal - my movies are in a dedicated room with a 2 channel amp and speaker pair that is very adequate for the task. But I found that I no longer wanted to be dictated to where to sit, and not listening to music for that reason did not seem to be the sensible thing to be doing! I dabbled around with Airplay before discovering Sonos in 2011 - I sold the last of my in storage legacy hifi kit in 2013/14 - and I am now listening to a lot more music, of much more variety, than ever before with no significant sound quality compromise. On the contrary: I haven't heard music sound as good as it does from a pair of play 1 units on my desktop that flank the computer, probably because the near field listening does't give room acoustics a chance to mess up things.
My learnings, apart from not having to do the tricky thing of mixing up AV and audio solutions:
1. Using a NAS for acquired music.
2. The value of subwoofer once I saw how well the Sonos Sub integrates with even the "cheap" play 1 units.
3. The contribution of "always on" to obtaining more music in the home.
4. The value of play units over even Sonos Connect/Connect Amp. The former are the logical conclusion of a move to Sonos, and one need not progress through the intermediate stages that the latter are. I have a couple of zones with Connect/Connect Amp, but if the electronics fail beyond repair at any time in the future, an appropriate play unit/s will replace it. Hopefully, someone will still want to buy the passive speakers at that time:-).
5. The usefulness of music delivery that is at a similar volume level across the space instead of too loud close to the speakers to be well heard away from them in anything bigger than a small space. Which is also a problem in a stereo set up that is limited by physics and psychoacoustics to yield the stereo image in a relatively very small part of the room. And that too from recordings where all that is needed to deliver this effect has been properly incorporated.
Others will have more to say on these lines, but I think this may be more useful than making recommendations for specific Sonos kit other than the advice to buy the kit on a returnable basis till you are sure you know what part of the range works best for you.
+2
My TV is old and not positioned in a way that I can enjoy AV sound via hifi. I will replace the TV and get one with optical connections, which offers more versatility when used with Sonos (I think). Presently I stream my iTunes library via Airplay on Apple TV, optical link to a Cambridge Audio DAC and from there into the pre-amp of my current system. It sounds great. But... the monolithic old system robs me of space, dictates where I sit to enjoy it and doesn't hook up to my AV system. Multi-room isn't a priority at all for me (although I accept I might be persuaded if I get into the Sonos ethic) so Connect doesn't offer me anything much I don't have already.
I think he wants to avoid fail 15 ;o))
http://www.sonos.com/en-gb/you-are-better-than-this
I did replace my Bose 35 5+1 with Sonos Playbar+Sub+2x play:1. Main reasons , reduce wires in the room, have multiroom and have lide simpler for my wife ( with Bose I had 2 remote , input sources to change etc. )
Before that , I made trials with the connect and the bose, but the connect is "old" and the sound quality was a bit dull. And I did not solve the remote issue.
With current solution everything is simple and straight (In fairness I also added an optical switch t connect to the playbar a cable box and one apple Tv , but when my wife needs , she does nothing and sound goes through the TV anyway !)
Soundwise, music quality is significantly better that what I had from Bose , while surround with movies is very good but bose was a bit "punchier" .
Of course if you compare a truly hi-fi system ( old , yes , but high quality I understood ) with sonos you risk the sound being a bit below your expectations. Sonos is terrific, but it is designed to improve dramatically everyday use , it is not an hi-end hi-fi device !
However soundbar+sub deliver a real pleasant experience
Before that , I made trials with the connect and the bose, but the connect is "old" and the sound quality was a bit dull. And I did not solve the remote issue.
With current solution everything is simple and straight (In fairness I also added an optical switch t connect to the playbar a cable box and one apple Tv , but when my wife needs , she does nothing and sound goes through the TV anyway !)
Soundwise, music quality is significantly better that what I had from Bose , while surround with movies is very good but bose was a bit "punchier" .
Of course if you compare a truly hi-fi system ( old , yes , but high quality I understood ) with sonos you risk the sound being a bit below your expectations. Sonos is terrific, but it is designed to improve dramatically everyday use , it is not an hi-end hi-fi device !
However soundbar+sub deliver a real pleasant experience
I may be missing something, but why can't you add a Connect, and use the line in sockets on it for audio for the TV?
+2
On grounds of like for like replacement and comparison you're right. I've had an offer for my existing system that would cover the cost of the Sonos kit I'd choose. Practically though that represents a 'point of no return' choice. I also need to replace my TV too right now, so the availability of optical inputs allows me to hook up and Apple TV and with it access directly to Airplay. The ability to add on with Sonos means that I can bring Play 5 x 2 into the equation later. I wouldn't expect a Playbar to get close to my current system but from what I've read I expect it will sound good enough as a first step. And I can finance that without waving goodbye to my separates.
My hifi separates listed at £7,000 in total (although all bought second-hand, reprocessed etc so paid much less). Two Play:5s + Sub new are £1,500 and are not too far off. Yes it's still a lot of money but £ for £ it's great value. (They don't have the same power, but still lots more power than I can actually use in my apartment.)
I recently sold my old seperates , I wanted to purchase newer stuff when I eventually move but have decided to go down the sonos route.
I'm going to start with 2 play 5's and go from there, ease of use/expansion and less space has helped my decision.
I'm happy to accept they may not sound as good as a higher end seperates but won't be far away, a brief listen to one play 5 in a high street electrical outlet had me very impressed.
The only slight down side is the price, £900 would buy you a nice set of bookshelves and a streaming device of some description, but you then have the problem of cables etc and lack of simplicity for adding other speakers around the house.
I'm still on the sonos side though!
I'm going to start with 2 play 5's and go from there, ease of use/expansion and less space has helped my decision.
I'm happy to accept they may not sound as good as a higher end seperates but won't be far away, a brief listen to one play 5 in a high street electrical outlet had me very impressed.
The only slight down side is the price, £900 would buy you a nice set of bookshelves and a streaming device of some description, but you then have the problem of cables etc and lack of simplicity for adding other speakers around the house.
I'm still on the sonos side though!
I think the start small is a good idea too. But the Playbar is not the best test against what you are used to, and seems a strange choice for this purpose (if you'll forgive my saying so) given what you said about the importance of music over TV. I'm not convinced the Playbar will be optimal for you for TV or music. I'd get a pair of Play:5s instead. You can try them without commitment and before selling your other gear. But of course it's none of my business really!
Starting small is always a good idea; the thing about house sound is that it is unique to an extent, which leads to personal and subjective preferences for one over another, without one having to be better/worse than the other.
+2
Another angle on this: I don't know what make these separates are, but I know of one make - Quad - that is brilliant in supporting their kit for decades. Their UK service set up in particular, is excellent and can run a check on all electronics ever made by Quad and bring it back to As New, with even a limited guarantee. I have used this service from as far as India, and I know people from EU that also have nothing but praise for Quad service.
The reason I say this is that from a sound quality perspective, there has been a lot less audible progress than one might think. Depending on what and how good the passive speakers are, of course. Where Sonos has added features is in making a lot more music easier to access and to play. There may therefore be a case to keep this set up, and add just a Sonos front end in the form of a Connect. You could also add the cheaper Chromecast Audio, but having used both I think the easier to use Connect - even just the few control buttons that the Connect has - easily justifies the higher price when use over a few years is taken into account.
As I said, just another point of view to take into account.
And a very significant point at that. I'm keenly aware that the system I have was and remains the best I could afford. The manufacturer has all the facilities you describe, and I have over the years had it regularly serviced at the factory. I don't realistically expect a wireless system to compete toe to toe with the sound I've lived with for twenty years or so, but since I don't listen as I used to maybe Sonos or similar can get close enough for me not to worry about it. I've spent today trawling any reviews I can find to get the best perspective on user experience. Right now I'm thinking that rather than sell and replace my old system lock, stock and barrel, it may be more sensible to start with a soundbar and try it for size. As a toe in the water, it might give me a feel for the Sonos house sound and allow me to add more units if the experience is positive.
I have this setup ( 2 play:5 and sub ) Depending on the music you're listening to, yes the sub makes a huge difference.
Another angle on this: I don't know what make these separates are, but I know of one make - Quad - that is brilliant in supporting their kit for decades. Their UK service set up in particular, is excellent and can run a check on all electronics ever made by Quad and bring it back to As New, with even a limited guarantee. I have used this service from as far as India, and I know people from EU that also have nothing but praise for Quad service.
The reason I say this is that from a sound quality perspective, there has been a lot less audible progress than one might think. Depending on what and how good the passive speakers are, of course. Where Sonos has added features is in making a lot more music easier to access and to play. There may therefore be a case to keep this set up, and add just a Sonos front end in the form of a Connect. You could also add the cheaper Chromecast Audio, but having used both I think the easier to use Connect - even just the few control buttons that the Connect has - easily justifies the higher price when use over a few years is taken into account.
As I said, just another point of view to take into account.
I don't have a new gen play 5 but it made a massive difference to my old gen unit. Especially at higher volumes.
I have heard the sub doesn't add a tremendous amount to a pair of Play:5s (but I have no first had experience).
I would just add that whatever Sonos speakers you opt for a Sub is a must. It's not just about the bass but as above have said it frees up the speakers so much that they sound amazing. You can also try the sub on a long return, but I would place good money on the fact that you will not return it 🙂
I only have 1 new Play:5 so I haven't tried an A:B comparison to my separates in my living room (Mid-tier receiver with B&W 600 series speakers). I would guess though a pair of the new Play:5's would give them a run for their money and free up a lot of wires and space.
I'd agree with everything @silvergrey said. The P:1s are amazingly good for their size, and the Sub fills in much of what they can't do. It does give a great result and is an excellent option. But I still prefer 2 x P:5 and certainly 2 x P:5 + Sub. All subjective.
+2
Thanks! Experiences like your encourage me to make the break with conventional separates.
I moved house recently and didn't have room for my separates which used to be housed in my 'listening room'/office.
Although it pained me to get rid of the separates it was the right thing to do. I had boxed them up and were just sat there, so selling them released a bit of cash. In my living room I have 2 Play 1's (on Flexon stands) as well as a Sub. It's not quite up there with my separates system, but it is very good. My Connect and headphone amp (and headphones!) are in my new smaller office and I have a single Play 1 in the kitchen and a Play 3 in my bedroom.
I have a cheap Sony soundbar for use with my tv in lounge.
For a multi-room solution with a small footprint I've found it to be excellent. And I don't miss my separates.
Although it pained me to get rid of the separates it was the right thing to do. I had boxed them up and were just sat there, so selling them released a bit of cash. In my living room I have 2 Play 1's (on Flexon stands) as well as a Sub. It's not quite up there with my separates system, but it is very good. My Connect and headphone amp (and headphones!) are in my new smaller office and I have a single Play 1 in the kitchen and a Play 3 in my bedroom.
I have a cheap Sony soundbar for use with my tv in lounge.
For a multi-room solution with a small footprint I've found it to be excellent. And I don't miss my separates.
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