Sonos and powerline adaptor

G

Hi

 

I am having an issue with my sonos system and powerline adaptor. My sonos system is set up via wifi and I have a powerline connected to to wifi to extend my wifi range to the garden. When I open the sonos app via ios phone my system will not appear and will only reappear if I reset the router. The system will appear for a period of time then disappear again until another router reset. 
 

I have performed a quick test and disconnected the powerline adaptor and this has solved the issue of the system disappearing from the app. 
 

Can anyone recommend how I can reconnect the powerline adaptor (which is only used to extend my wifi range to my garden) but not affect the sonos system?

 

Thanks

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13 replies

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @gregor_29 

Welcome to the Sonos Community!

I’m afraid you’ve just hit the exact reason that we don’t support the use of powerline, or other WiFi extenders/boosters - they often block certain types of networking protocols that Sonos makes use of.

For extending the range of your WiFi reception, we recommend the use of mesh systems.

However, you can prevent your Sonos system (excepting portable models Move and Roam) from connecting to your Powerline by connecting any one speaker (not a Sub) to your router via ethernet. It will create it’s own, private WiFi for Sonos’ own use.

There is still a chance, however, that your phone will connect to the Powerline adaptor which may result in continued issues. If this happens, I recommend using a mesh.

You may also be able to prevent Sonos from using Powerline by altering the WiFi name broadcasted by the Powerline - as long as Sonos doesn’t know the details, it won’t connect.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
D

I’m having the same problem. I have a mesh system that connects to a powerline adaptor and into the router. I have 3 feet thick walls and it is the only way to do it.

I have never had problems with the set-up other than last week and I’m now on my umpteenth factory reset. 

When you talk about the network protocols that Sonos use not being supported, can you possibly explain/detail what these are for us to be able to identify if this is, indeed, the source of the problem. It’s the first time I’ve heard of this and not previously read anything to suggest otherwise.

Regards

 

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @dataylor01 

Welcome to the Sonos Community!

Your mesh connects to your router via Powerline? If at all possible, I would advise against this, though I appreciate that if you have 3 foot thick walls your options are certainly limited. Wired APs like UniFi may be a better option.

I was (unfairly) lumping Powerline in with extenders and boosters. It’s extenders and boosters that often don’t pass multicast packets without converting them to unicast ones. In addition, they typically half the available bandwidth due to not being full-duplex.

With Powerline, issues can arise with old mains cabling, how your circuits are connected in your consumer unit (circuit breaker box), electrically “noisy” devices on your mains circuits, and with the use of mains extension cables. When there are performance issues on Sonos systems, we try to start by simplifying the speakers’ connection paths. Reducing the number of influencing factors is a big part of this, and Powerline comes with it’s own set of these. Which is not to say that for some people it doesn’t work - for some, like yourself, it’s the only practical option, and can perform without issue.

We rarely recommend factory resetting Sonos without sufficient troubleshooting done first, but we’d never recommend multiple factory resets - if it didn’t work the first time, it’s definitely not going to help if you perform this procedure repeatedly. Damage can be done, however, though it is unlikely.

Is your router a BT Smart Hub 2? If so, I highly recommend you read this thread:

 

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
D

It’s not an uncommon configuration and has worked for a number of years. I have a very old cottage which is a long rectangular shaped. It’s the only thing that remotely works - and I’ve spend many GBP trying to punch through the walls.

The homeplug devices are showing 1440m/bit “capability” and the wifi from the mesh I’m getting anywhere from 22 to 32 m/bits. It works with Alexa, Google Home and streams 4K Netflix, amazon Movies and Movies/Music on my NAS (Plex), Google TV, FireSticks with absolutely no problems whatsoever.

So, prey tell, what are the networking protocols that is uniquely causing interoperability with my home plugs that no other device in the household suffers?

I was an advocate of Sonos and have been a regular contributor to the Beta programmes - Alexa integration and S2 apps being two most memorable but I’m losing faith. 

Ken_Griffiths

It’s not an uncommon configuration and has worked for a number of years. I have a very old cottage which is a long rectangular shaped. It’s the only thing that remotely works - and I’ve spend many GBP trying to punch through the walls.

The homeplug devices are showing 1440m/bit “capability” and the wifi from the mesh I’m getting anywhere from 22 to 32 m/bits. It works with Alexa, Google Home and streams 4K Netflix, amazon Movies and Movies/Music on my NAS (Plex), Google TV, FireSticks with absolutely no problems whatsoever.

So, prey tell, what are the networking protocols that is uniquely causing interoperability with my home plugs that no other device in the household suffers?

I was an advocate of Sonos and have been a regular contributor to the Beta programmes - Alexa integration and S2 apps being two most memorable but I’m losing faith. 

I understand that the Sonos Controllers use SSDP multicasts (the UPnP discovery protocol) over UDP to discover the Sonos players. Both the Sonos players and controllers must share the same network subnet. However if the Sonos devices are connecting to multiple access points, the recommendations are that they be set to the same WiFi channel. This is for optimum performance particularly in groups.

For some reason, with mesh, or WiFi ‘extended’ systems using access points, or powerline adapters (which often may come with their own line-interference issues) it appears some will work okay with Sonos, but others may not, particularly if the satellites/access points are perhaps using, or auto-selecting, their own (different) WiFi channels and ‘channel-width’ and to solve any issues arising, many here (myself included) often suggest the alternative of using SonosNet for Sonos device discovery/communication instead, but unfortunately that’s not possible with portable Sonos products like Move/Roam that can only use a local WiFi signal and do not use SonosNet (for good reason). 

Therefore, as very clearly stated in the Sonos System Requirements, such adapters (particularly powerline adapters, range extenders and EOP devices) are not ‘officially’ supported, albeit you may find that some products (setup correctly) may, or may not, work for you. 

In my own experience of being on the forum here, it’s sometimes a case of user configuration error with powerline adapters, or wireless extenders, being setup with incompatible credentials or set to use different WiFi channels and channel-width, but clearly some adapters will just interfere with the SSDP multicasting too.

Thats at least my own understanding of the issue.

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @dataylor01 

Given that your system worked without issue in it’s current configuration, it should do so again, assuming nothing has changed.

I recommend you start with a reboot of your Sonos devices, your Powerline devices, your mesh and your router. Once you have turned them all off, turn on the router first. Once it is fully online, turn on Powerline, starting with the unit connected to the router. Once Powerline is up and running, turn on your first (wired) mesh node and wait for it to boot before turning on the other nodes. Once the network is fully up-and-running, turn on Sonos. If you have an ethernet-wired Sonos device, turn that on first and wait for the solid white light before turning on the rest.

Although all of this probably isn’t necessary, it’s the best way to ensure the problem isn’t due to software somewhere not operating correctly.

If these steps don’t help, please try to think of anything that has changed - any new devices? LED dimmers can be known to cause issues with Powerline. Do problems start when certain devices are in operation, like a refrigerator turning it’s pump on and off? Are there any new WiFi-enabled devices? If so, are they located near any others (especially Access Points)? Please try to keep any WiFi devices at least 1m from each other and Access Points. If you have a new Sonos device that you have added to a playing group, that might have pushed things to the limit (given that your speakers are unlikely to be able to communicate directly - due to the walls - and must utilise the network infrastructure to sync music). Without more details about your system and home, I can only theorise.

The only way for us to be sure what is going wrong is if you contact our technical support team so we can get diagnostics from your Sonos system and work from there. As your system worked with Powerline before, I don’t see why it won’t again (unless there are new factors).

Usually, I’d mention that neighbours getting new devices or even just changing their WiFi channels can affect your WiFi reliability, but with your 3-foot-thick walls, that would be more ironic than anything else!

Sonos typically uses your network in a way that other devices don’t - most are just interested in connecting to the internet. When local communications are used by other applications, like smart bulbs or heating controllers, the communications are usually very short, with minimal data being sent. Sonos systems only need the internet bandwidth to stream a few (if that) simultaneous music streams from the internet, but communicate with each other and the controller constantly, often with those entire stream(s). Both of these communication types require near constant throughput for the entire time you play music, which could be all day. The local communications are typically multicast and many boosters and extenders convert these to unicast, so grouping over these connections is not possible and the devices are not supported. With Powerline, I don’t believe any packet types are blocked, but the additional factors mean that we could spend all day troubleshooting Sonos when it should be Powerline that’s being troubleshooted instead, so we don’t support Powerline either - but it can certainly work

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Thanks @Ken_Griffiths!

I agree with all of that too - truth is, there’s a lot going on.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
D

Appreciate the response and I’m going to start again from scratch and if no joy then will try tech support.

I have to admit though that I was shocked when I read your response above in relation to Sonos not supporting Homeplugs. As a Sonos owner for a good few years, I found the query from gregor_29 by accident. As it was posted only a few minutes before I looked at the community pages. I did a search on homeplugs and there are many customers suffering and I’m not surprised given their prevalence

It is though both interesting and, in my view, shameful that Sonos do not even mention any of this in any of the FAQs on the product pages - I’ve not read them all but just the products I own. I find this quite remarkable.

Ken_Griffiths

It is though both interesting and, in my view, shameful that Sonos do not even mention any of this in any of the FAQs on the product pages - I’ve not read them all but just the products I own. I find this quite remarkable.

The information is certainly stated in their System Requirements - see LINK

Not quite Sonos related, but my brother used powerline adapters/home-plugs initially quite successfully with his TV cable box, but he fitted a new electric fire in his Dining Room and just that change greatly interfered with his powerline signal (video was breaking up/freezing etc.) - so sometimes the issues that interfere, can be changes that occur elsewhere in/around the Home, often making matters sometimes a little difficult to pin-point.

D

Thanks for your response Ken_Griffiths

There is nothing in the tech requirements I read that discount networks built by homeplugs as being unsupported. Yes, it recommends mesh but it doesn’t explicitly shout out homeplugs even a statement that mentions potential issues.

I have uPNP running all over the place without issues. DNLA devices etc and as I’ve mentioned previously have no issues on any devices other than Sonos

I appreciate that Sonos have special requirements to extend the functionality of synching and multi-room. But this is not unique. I have two Play 5s in stereo mode and line into into a TV and when it works it is a thing of beauty.

Anyway…..I’ll have to work this out.

 

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @dataylor01 

It states it in that very page:

Unsupported network setups and devices

  • Wireless internet connections such as satellite, mobile hotspots, or LTE routers
  • Guest networks or networks that use a portal login page
  • Networks using wireless range extenders 2
  • Ethernet over Power (EOP) devices
  • WPA/WPA2 Enterprise

 

My advice remains the same: contact technical support. They will analyse diagnostics from your system which should identify the cause of the problem. Without diagnostics, we can only guess as to what the cause of the problem might be. If they identify that the issue is with the network, however, troubleshooting will stop there, due to the use of unsupported Powerline.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
D

Apologies, my mistake - a take it all back - indeed it does. Strangely, I read it as Power over Ethernet.

However, given the significance, my view is that it show clearly in the product FAQs. Would love to do a straw poll with current customers as to whether they were aware on purchase.

Cheers

 

 

 

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @dataylor01 

Apologies, my mistake - a take it all back - indeed it does. Strangely, I read it as Power over Ethernet.

No worries - I did the same thing on first glance.

However, given the significance, my view is that it show clearly in the product FAQs. Would love to do a straw poll with current customers as to whether they were aware on purchase.

Thanks for your suggestion - I take your point, and I’ll pass this on.

 

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
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