S2 Update 14.12 Sub Issues

R
Userlevel 4

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

84 replies

skullc
Userlevel 6
Badge +12

@SarahN The issues that troubles me are mainly the ones with a sub connected my beam and 1s in the bedroom seem ok oddly 

Also if I turn truplay off the bass returns 

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
Ken_Griffiths

No I don’t. My Sub is connected to my Beam HT set up and is totally fine……………..

 

My Fives are just fine to my ears

I don’t have a Sub connected to the two Fives here either and they sound absolutely fine to me aswell. I have them set in a vertical orientation (tweeters on the outside) and not noticed any issues with those at all 🤔?

I also have two Moves (standalone, not paired) and not noticed anything untoward with those speakers either. 

The Wife & I use the ‘Bathroom’ Move most mornings and I’ve just asked her and she hasn’t noticed anything different either? I have Auto-Trueplay enabled on both.. and I set its treble up two notches to how we like to listen to things.

The only thing I’ve mainly come across since the update is the Arc seems ‘slightly’ quieter and so I have had to move the volume slider up a touch (no more than 40% for TV audio. I also found the clarity/warmth seemed to be slightly better (a subtle difference) without Trueplay in our Living Room, so I left that disabled after tuning and set my own EQ/Sub-volume settings.

I didn’t opt to try to retune the room, but that’s something I may consider trying at some point.

I will now just go and try switching on/off auto-Trueplay on the Moves, now that’s been mentioned here, to see if I am able to notice anything.

skullc
Userlevel 6
Badge +12

@Ken_Griffiths truplay literally removes all bass and sub for me and toggling on moves does little 

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths truplay literally removes all bass and sub for me and toggling on moves does little 

Yes, there seems to be hardly anything in it when toggling Auto-Trueplay off/on with the Move (I used the downstairs Move called ‘Portable’) for our test (giving auto-Trueplay a couple of minutes to adjust of course), but with the quick ‘listening’ tests that the Wife and I just did here, we both opted for Auto-Trueplay ‘on’ (well, mostly).

There is plenty of Bass on the Move here - we just (mostly) leave the slider on its default setting, but if we did move that slider it would be left, towards less Bass, if anything, rather than more. We just like a touch more treble, but that’s perhaps an age thing.

So with this build we will leave auto-Trueplay ‘on’ for the ‘Move’. We have Trueplay tuned the stereo Fives and that is proving okay aswell. Any changes are mostly subtle on both those rooms.

1 Attachment
Ken_Griffiths

Either way @skullc, I’m fairly sure Sonos will be looking into the various diagnostics and CS contacts made by the various users about the recent software/firmware update and if changes are needed, we will probably see those catered for in the next update anyway, or maybe the one after that. It’s probably just a case that more tuning is needed in an assortment of environments, but there’s no ‘pleasing all the people, all the time’ …and that’s where the options come in to adjust the EQ and/or use/not-use  Trueplay etc; I guess. 

In one YT video online for the Beam2, when that first came out - a user (who shall remain nameless) suggested the best setting for that speaker with the then current firmware was minus-6 .. that was insufficient Bass for how I like to listen to things despite any spectrum analysis they displayed in their presentation, so I just opted for my own listening preference, which was around minus-2 (at that time).

I guess we all have our own listening environments and preferences and where we choose to listen - which in my case is much more than a metre away from a device, where some opt to put the microphone and like to test these sort of things.

Perhaps let’s just wait and see what the next Sonos update brings.

skullc
Userlevel 6
Badge +12

@Ken_Griffiths 

Agreed but for me 14.10 was perfect now I cannot get the sound signature to a place where I like truplay is unusable and as my cinema setup is important to me I will wait to see if they fix it.

But if they setup the sound for dialogue like now I will replace my cinema setup to something that I like, the sonos speakers I use for music get used less so I am going to be more patient.

A real shame as over the past couple of years I enjoyed the sonos sound signature which now seems to have been lost, IMHO if people complaining they could not hear dialogue a more sensible update would have been a centre channel slider to boost that channel not to adjust the sound across all channels.

I have never had dialogue issues with any content never had to use speech enhancement and I am 65!

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
Ken_Griffiths

@skullc,

Yes, if it’s doable, I would like to see the option to increase volume on the front center channel and perhaps an option to manually balance the HT sound between the left and right channels too, as I tend to sit in two different locations in the Living Room.

Both have been asked for by a few users, but some argue that TruePlay should be able to resolve these things - it does some things, but not everything I would like to see.

S
Userlevel 1

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Crazy that it is so difficult to just deliver us a reliably flat response after random their house sound in ideal conditions before trueplay. And I’m still not happy with loudness you should take a look at that too. 

Ken_Griffiths

I don’t think the overall volume of the Arc has changed, just the volume curve has been altered, so that it gets much louder in the latter part of the volume slider - probably to cater for all the different audio output levels from the various TV manufacturers and music sources …and I’m guessing Sonos are trying to achieve better overall output levels around the mid-way 50% volume level, whilst keeping all inline with output from their other speakers. It must be difficult to find the levels that best suit all.

I don’t have any issues with setting my volume slider a little further along the curve. That is somewhat meaningless to me, as I mostly use the TV remote and just see a ‘+’ / ‘-‘ display on screen, so often have no idea what the volume level is until I actually look in the App and it’s nowhere near full volume for my LG C9 TV - most often it’s near (less than) a volume level of 40%.

R
Badge

Seeing similar issues with sub seemingly lacking in the low end thump I was used to(sub level usually +5). Even setting to +15 doesn't give you the low end, just a weird washy bass that sounds like it's coming from the other room.

 

I am Playbar, 2x play:1 and sub gen3

R
Userlevel 4

Reposting from the FB group as there are a lot of new posts coming in with similar comments/questions so wanted to have a refresher.

1)    Peter Pee did a really good video on the changes to the Arc.  But this video is only about the Arc changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrQRuyi8kLA&t=2s

2)    The changes to the Arc are purposeful and are documented in the Update notes.  It still seems that people either love it or hate it.  After listening to it even more, I actually like what they've done with the Arc especially after Trueplay.  

3)    The changes to the sub are not documented and thus it does not look like it was planned.  Support was not aware of any changes to the sub either.

4)    The change with the sub is going to exist for everyone as it's a software change where Trueplay is not adjusting the <50hz frequencies much at all.

5)    The difference between Trueplay On and Off is interesting when the sub is turned up all the way.  Trueplay On = 60hz is 20db MORE than 40hz. Trueplay Off = 60hz is 4-6db LESS than 40hz

6)    So between Trueplay On vs Off, it's a difference of at least 24db between 40hz and 60hz when the sub volume is turned up all the way.  This is the key that shows trueplay adjustment is not changing the 40hz frequency much at all.

7)    If you play music that doesn't have <50hz frequencies, it's very likely that this change makes the music sound better.  I've had issues with the crossover specifically because we lose these 70-90hz frequencies in the overlapping point.

8)    If you haven't noticed the change, don't go looking for it.  Enjoy that you haven't noticed it and keep on rocking.

9)    While I don't like the changes to the sub, I still play music and movies and enjoy them.  It doesn't make me regret buying Sonos.  Mistakes and defects happen in software, and no software is perfect.

10)    I chatted with Sonos Support Tuesday night and they said they'll have their specialists look into the data I gathered, but I haven't heard anything from them yet.  I'm heading on vacation, but will keep an eye out and update if I hear more.

J
Userlevel 1

I purchased Sonos (Arc and sub gen 3) because of impressive low bass I love. Now after update I am sure I could bought anything else than Sonos. I heard two versions of Dolby Atmos demo on Peter YouTube channel and I know previous FW version was better for me. This update did hurt my Sonos experience and I will be sad but it will go away if they will not fix it. Is any Sonos team member read it?

J

My system also now sounds poor after update and  redoing truplay several times.  I contacted support but they seem to be unaware of the 14.12 problem. They just recommended reboot, change router channel, etc.  
Is there anywhere else we can provide feedback towards getting a fix deployed for this?

Majo133
Userlevel 6
Badge +2

I can also confirm SUB sounds anemic after 14.12 update and also the overall volume of the whole system has been somehow deafened, meaning the volume slider has to be set to a higher volume.

So yeah, it seems QA at SONOS did not do their job.

Yesterday, is not today.
Majo133
Userlevel 6
Badge +2

@ropfeil great, thanks for the summ. So let us know if SONOS reached to u regarding the SUB issues.

Yesterday, is not today.
I
Userlevel 3
Badge +2

I just got an email reply from Sonos after contacting them, hope this helps……

Hello Ian,

Thank you for contacting Sonos Customer Experience. My name is Shising, and I am happy to assist you regarding your issue. I am sorry you have had to deal with this issue. I know how frustrating it is when the system does not work as it should, and I will do my best to help you.

After the release of R3 2022, an issue was discovered that impacts audio quality negatively with Trueplay enabled on certain Home Theater Configurations.

The issue will result in slightly less output from the Sub. The issue for Arc will also affect certain other frequencies and currently, it can only be fully mitigated by Turning off Trueplay tuning | Sonos.

Please note that R3 also introduced additional changes to the Arc's audio output. These changes are expected and can result in a slightly lower perceived volume output but can simply be changed by raising the volume slightly in the Sonos app. The user doesn't lose out on overall volume, as it's just the volume scale that has been adjusted slightly. These changes are intended and are working as designed.

We are aware of the issue that Trueplay affects the sound quality negatively and are working on a fix but do not have any more information or a timeline to share.

Once again, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, and we thank you for your understanding on this matter. If you have other concerns, feel free to let us know.

All the best,

Dogdad
Userlevel 5
Badge +14

Sonos has put out a general statement to the public on this issue explaining it all. 

I
Userlevel 3
Badge +2

I just saw that in the announcements section thanks

M

I have the same issue since the 14.12 update, I have (2) Gen3 subs, a Sonos ARC and (2) Sonos ones SL.  Once I disabled the trueplay the bass was back to how it originally was.  I did not realize how bad it was until I was watching Godzilla vs Kong and then disabled the trueplay.  It’s night and day difference, I hope Sonos fixes this soon.  At this price point they should have better test and QA.  

Dogdad
Userlevel 5
Badge +14

I have the same issue since the 14.12 update, I have (2) Gen3 subs, a Sonos ARC and (2) Sonos ones SL.  Once I disabled the trueplay the bass was back to how it originally was.  I did not realize how bad it was until I was watching Godzilla vs Kong and then disabled the trueplay.  It’s night and day difference, I hope Sonos fixes this soon.  At this price point they should have better test and QA.  

Sonos put out a post on the issues today…might maybe read it.

A
Userlevel 2
Badge

For me, disabling TruePlay didn’t seem to make much difference. Still very little bass and a tinny sound. Increasing the bass EQ to max made some difference, but still lacked depth.

I have read the Sonos community manager post about the update and I have commented in more depth there.

It seems to me either Sonos have not fully understood the scope of the issues, or have chosen to not fully acknowledge them for marketing reasons. In my opinion neither would reflect well on Sonos.

M

I have the same issue since the 14.12 update, I have (2) Gen3 subs, a Sonos ARC and (2) Sonos ones SL.  Once I disabled the trueplay the bass was back to how it originally was.  I did not realize how bad it was until I was watching Godzilla vs Kong and then disabled the trueplay.  It’s night and day difference, I hope Sonos fixes this soon.  At this price point they should have better test and QA.  

Sonos put out a post on the issues today…might maybe read it.

Dogdad,

 

Featuring two posts up from mine the problem was listed, the issue has NOTHING to do with reading.. it has to do with making sure Sonos knows how many people are having the issue and the system configuration that maybe impacted.  Maybe before making comments with no value, you should think about the bigger picture.  

S
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

I also noticed that something is wrong with the sound after 14.12

I put the volume way higher than before and I still don’t get the same results that I used to.

I did not read this thread until I have created a new one… Yes, I totally agreed the Ver update 14.12 is totally not worth,, just regret else I hope to return back to previous version if possible.

 

Next time, I would consider to hold for a while before updating. 

I

Unfortunately the update completely destroyed sub performance. There is literally ZERO rumble, no sub bass. I have increased sub level to +5, and bass to +2 and am only getting an annoying increase in mid bass volume. Retuning trueplay or toggling it on/off yields no difference either.

M

 

Has anyone tested out the 14.14 release to see if it fixes the Sub issue?  I just updated (by accident) and have not tried enabling Trueplay yet to see if the Bass issue comes back.  Thanks for any updates as I am not home to test.

 

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