Joint lawsuit against SONOS



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Another reason is that the Sonos app needs to know what Wifi channels it should search on.

Not all channels are available worldwide so your location is necessary to determine that.

@Calyptotis Give an update.

I agree this is not ok. I just upgraded my phone (it's always been an Android) and now the new phone and newly installed app is giving me this same BS. 

@Sonos you should be ashamed for this change. You can definitely just ask for a zip code or even use wifi generic location information. I'm sure there are better ways to get the location information needed for radio stations.

Sonos refund me or fix this. Make this right for your loyal customers. Your products aren't cheap. We have many options yet we buy Sonos for the quality not your info grab. Your losing trust. Even though a few people say they're against taking action on this small forumb if this gets out to the masses I'm sure you'll see the rides turn.

I have one simple ask. Send an update that ask for the zip code instead of this current lockout. That would make everything better. Thanks 



Since the Sonos rep gave satisfactory answers, and the original poster has not returned since those answers were posted, I suggest the threat of a lawsuit was nothing but mere posturing. As are the vast majority of these types of threats.

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Agree with OP, and would add it looks like other manufacturers are doing this too, such as Samsung during the SmartThings hub setup.

Unless you enable location services, the Samsung hub can’t be used.  Geo coordinates are not typically part of home automation, the requirement is crossing the line, as Sonos/Apple/Google are doing.

At some point in 2019, we found ourselves in an era where a speaker won’t work until you share your home address with the manufacture. That’s sad, a few customers will leave and/or avoid signing up.

Regardless of whether it’s an iOS change that requires location access to scan networks, or whatever other excuse, if all you’re doing is setting up a speaker, your home address is technically irrelevant to that task.

Samsung flashed my home address on screen during SmartThings setup, asking for confirmation. Absolutely nothing to do with home automation, or the primary function of a home automation hub. 

It’s no secret that user location data is valuable.  Artificial excuses about network scanning is used to reason that data away from compliant end users. 

We need to find specific devices on your local network, that’s why we need you to expose your exact location on Earth real quick” is not a valid reason.

 

I can’t believe I have fallen for this. after being thrtough forced updates in the past, for enduring their utter garbage website, pestered regularly for location data when setting up new networks or speakers, to now being forced to share something I don’t want to or have to share with them. It is clearly not required. End of.

I haven’t read all the replies on here, but the ones I have that support Sonos are complete idiots and are fundamentally missing the point. Please go back and consider your thoughts more carfeully.

 

Moderator edit: Removed profanity.

 

 

 

Moderator edit: Removed profanity.

 

Paranoia, however, left intact.

I haven’t read all the replies on here, but the ones I have that support Sonos are complete idiots and are fundamentally missing the point. Please go back and consider your thoughts more carfeully.

 

It might be a good idea to read the post specifically from Ryan S if you haven’t done so already. 

 

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Something puzzles me, why does a recently played list on ‘my sonos’ screen require logging into a remote server? I’m holding a super computer in my hand, yet the Sonos app can’t remember what I just played without help from the internet? I’m also getting prompted to log in when tapping the volume limit item in settings.

What next?… volume up request  > *login required* > authenticate > geo-confirm >  volume up??

Still new to Sonos, not liking all this account dependency, but I am liking other aspects such as getting the speakers to work with Hubitat (a refreshingly good platform that doesn’t need any sign-up), and adding a 2nd play:5 for stereo pair. Adding the 2nd, I noticed the geo-location requirement, and not impressed!

I haven’t read all the replies on here, but the ones I have that support Sonos are complete idiots and are fundamentally missing the point. Please go back and consider your thoughts more carfeully.

 

It might be a good idea to read the post specifically from Ryan S if you haven’t done so already. 

 

I have just read it and my thoughts are exactly the same - IT IS NOT REQUIRED! What (you) are saying is that the whole Sonos platform cannot operate without location services….really? I can understand it being optional.

I am not on iOS

 

Something puzzles me, why does a recently played list on ‘my sonos’ screen require logging into a remote server? I’m holding a super computer in my hand, yet the Sonos app can’t remember what I just played without help from the internet? I’m also getting prompted to log in when tapping the volume limit item in settings.

What next?… volume up request  > *login required* > authenticate > geo-confirm >  volume up??

Still new to Sonos, not liking all this account dependency, but I am liking other aspects such as getting the speakers to work with Hubitat (a refreshingly good platform that doesn’t need any sign-up), and adding a 2nd play:5 for stereo pair. Adding the 2nd, I noticed the geo-location requirement, and not impressed!

 

Just FYI, your phone/tablet is just a controller, and doesn’t store information about your system such as what was last played.  The reason is that you can have multiple controllers for the system.  Instead of making sure every possible controller, is updated with last played information, the controller software will go get that information when requested.  I believe the information is stored on the Sonos devices themselves, not on a remote server, but could be wrong about that. 

I’m also getting prompted to log in when tapping the volume limit item in settings.

Quite… I see no reason at all why a simple per device setting should need to be ‘phoned home’.

I’m also getting prompted to log in when tapping the volume limit item in settings.

Quite… I see no reason at all why a simple per device setting should need to be ‘phoned home’.

 

Requiring a log in is to prevent just anyone on your WiFi from changing your volume limit settings.  It’s not about sending info to a remote server (which really wouldn’t require a log in)

I’m also getting prompted to log in when tapping the volume limit item in settings.

Quite… I see no reason at all why a simple per device setting should need to be ‘phoned home’.

 

Requiring a log in is to prevent just anyone on your WiFi from changing your volume limit settings.  It’s not about sending info to a remote server (which really wouldn’t require a log in)

As far as I can see, the limit won’t ‘stick’ unless you allow the kit access to the internet - presumably, to a remote server, which assumes a log in.

As far as I can see, the limit won’t ‘stick’ unless you allow the kit access to the internet - presumably, to a remote server, which assumes a log in.

 

The Sonos devices could easily store your log in credentials, as they do from streaming services.  You don’t need to log in every time to access a remote server.  Therefore, log in is for a different reason.

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Just FYI, your phone/tablet is just a controller, and doesn’t store information about your system such as what was last played.  The reason is that you can have multiple controllers for the system. 

 

I only have one controller. There should be an option to store recently played items on that controller.

It’s dumb software design when you remove basic features because of the *possibility* of certain future scenarios, that may never happen.

An option in settings to enable a locally stored list would be easy to make. I could tick a box acknowledging that if I ever get multiple controllers, the list would not sync. Fine. Just give me the option!

A recently played list tied to ONE controller, is better than no list without account authentication over the internet. Given that in homes where people have their own phones to control their own music, a locally stored recent playlist to that controller makes perfect sense anyway if you don’t want to see what your parents played recently for example. So even with multiple controllers, the option to NOT sync the recent play list between controllers, would be a useful option.

 

 

Just FYI, your phone/tablet is just a controller, and doesn’t store information about your system such as what was last played.  The reason is that you can have multiple controllers for the system. 

 

I only have one controller. There should be an option to store recently played items on that controller.

It’s dumb software design when you remove basic features because of the *possibility* of certain future scenarios, that may never happen.

An option in settings to enable a locally stored list would be easy to make. I could tick a box acknowledging that if I ever get multiple controllers, the list would not sync. Fine. Just give me the option!

A recently played list tied to ONE controller, is better than no list without account authentication over the internet. Given that in homes where people have their own phones to control their own music, a locally stored recent playlist to that controller makes perfect sense anyway if you don’t want to see what your parents played recently for example. So even with multiple controllers, the option to NOT sync the recent play list between controllers, would be a useful option.

 

 

This is a daft suggestion. This is about the fundamental design of Sonos.  The speakers store the info and do the work. Controllers control. That is the way it is and must stay.

 

Since Sonos announced ad-supported features for all Sonos products yesterday, where they will be providing certain user data to advertisers, I decided to factory reset all my products and unlinking them from my account. Setting up my equipment again is now impossible without providing exact location data in the form of GPS access to Sonos. I‘m looking to prepare a lawsuit in the EU right now, where I live. European privacy and consumer protection laws should make this an easy win.

European privacy and consumer protection laws should make this an easy win.

 

I don't think you understand GDPR then.

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Since Sonos announced ad-supported features for all Sonos products yesterday, where they will be providing certain user data to advertisers, I decided to factory reset all my products and unlinking them from my account. Setting up my equipment again is now impossible without providing exact location data in the form of GPS access to Sonos. I‘m looking to prepare a lawsuit in the EU right now, where I live. European privacy and consumer protection laws should make this an easy win.

This is not how it works for Sonos. Sonos do not share your information with third parties, it’s in time terms and conditions and adheres to GDPR in Europe. 

Since Sonos announced ad-supported features for all Sonos products yesterday, where they will be providing certain user data to advertisers, I decided to factory reset all my products and unlinking them from my account. Setting up my equipment again is now impossible without providing exact location data in the form of GPS access to Sonos. I‘m looking to prepare a lawsuit in the EU right now, where I live. European privacy and consumer protection laws should make this an easy win.

This is not how it works for Sonos. Sonos do not share your information with third parties, it’s in time terms and conditions and adheres to GDPR in Europe. 

GDPR is not restricted to sharing information with third parties. It basically gives consumers the power to opt-out of any processing of their data and at the same requires any data processing that is not necessary to perform a service to be opt-in. I am not interested in using any of Sonos‘ services. I just want to connect my speakers via AirPlay to my Mac. Having my GPS location sent to Sonos is not necessary for that. I am not necessarily looking to file a GDPR complaint, but GDPR violations will help support certain claims in court.

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Claim away then.  I think you are wasting your time, and money.  Certainly a no win no fee lawyer won’t be interested.

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Hi @HartwigHart, I know this thread is a bit long, but here’s a reply that you might have missed:

 

  

Hi everyone, please remember to try and stay friendly here on the community.@RUBIX2 tagged me in above and I’m happy to share some clarity. It sounds like the main confusion here is around what Location Services includes.

 

With iOS 13, Apple gave users the ability to control their privacy in a more granular way. This impacts the user experience for Apple partners like Sonos, especially during setup. We support this change although it does mean users have to grant permission in a new way for location services. The permissions for Location Services now include settings beyond just GPS which can be used to point to a location by Apps, such as WiFi scans and Bluetooth Low Energy.

The Sonos app uses both Wifi scanning and BLE to find Sonos devices during setup, so it will ask for Location Services permissions at startup, and can't search for devices on iOS without these permissions. You can use the option to allow the app to do so only once, or only when the app is running. You can read more about how Apple outlines their Location Services here. If you have any concerns about the Sonos privacy statement, please feel free to contact us at privacy@sonos.com.

 

The Sonos app isn't asking for GPS details, it needs location services enabled so that it can use WiFi to scan for networks.

Hi @HartwigHart, I know this thread is a bit long, but here’s a reply that you might have missed:

 

  

Hi everyone, please remember to try and stay friendly here on the community.@RUBIX2 tagged me in above and I’m happy to share some clarity. It sounds like the main confusion here is around what Location Services includes.

 

With iOS 13, Apple gave users the ability to control their privacy in a more granular way. This impacts the user experience for Apple partners like Sonos, especially during setup. We support this change although it does mean users have to grant permission in a new way for location services. The permissions for Location Services now include settings beyond just GPS which can be used to point to a location by Apps, such as WiFi scans and Bluetooth Low Energy.

The Sonos app uses both Wifi scanning and BLE to find Sonos devices during setup, so it will ask for Location Services permissions at startup, and can't search for devices on iOS without these permissions. You can use the option to allow the app to do so only once, or only when the app is running. You can read more about how Apple outlines their Location Services here. If you have any concerns about the Sonos privacy statement, please feel free to contact us at privacy@sonos.com.

 

The Sonos app isn't asking for GPS details, it needs location services enabled so that it can use WiFi to scan for networks.

This could be plausible. Is this necessity documented anywhere with Apple? Can you assure, that at no point location data is transferred to Sonos?

Once I allow location access, why do I need to provide internet access, create an account, and have all kinds of information associated with my name and email address and transferred to and stored on Sonos servers?

I simply want to stream music from my Apple devices to my speakers via AirPlay in my home, without giving Sonos devices internet access and having them transmitting and processing any kind of my personal information!

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Check out the link at the end there to find out more about what Apple includes in Location Services.

Sonos players are all Internet connected devices, designed for music and streaming. They get updates online for security patches, new features, and other things, like adding AirPlay 2 and updating AirPlay protocols.

A while back, we improved our security policies to add passwords to preexisting accounts which have always required an email address for registration. Along with this, we implemented account linking to facilitate seamless integration with cloud services like Amazon Alexa, Spotify, and Deezer. This allows for things like starting a stream with AirPlay, and skipping the track with Alexa or Google Assistant, or the Sonos app. While it might not be a feature you’re looking for, it’s something that we had to lay the groundwork for everyone.
 

As to storing and using personal data, I can’t say it any better than our privacy policy, stated here.

Check out the link at the end there to find out more about what Apple includes in Location Services.

Sonos players are all Internet connected devices, designed for music and streaming. They get updates online for security patches, new features, and other things, like adding AirPlay 2 and updating AirPlay protocols.

A while back, we improved our security policies to add passwords to preexisting accounts which have always required an email address for registration. Along with this, we implemented account linking to facilitate seamless integration with cloud services like Amazon Alexa, Spotify, and Deezer. This allows for things like starting a stream with AirPlay, and skipping the track with Alexa or Google Assistant, or the Sonos app. While it might not be a feature you’re looking for, it’s something that we had to lay the groundwork for everyone.
 

As to storing and using personal data, I can’t say it any better than our privacy policy, stated here.

To summarise it, as of this writing, the privacy policy states Sonos collects and processes the following data of users:

email address, location, language preference, Product serial number, IP address, and Sonos account login information

To justify this it states:

This processing is necessary for the performance of the contract we have with you.

This is not legally sound. I do not have nor wish to have a contract with Sonos. It further states:

This data is absolutely necessary for your Sonos Product [...] to perform its basic functions in a secure way

This is a false statement. Until I set up any online services, not even an internet connection is technically necessary. Not even a firmware update is a basic function. There is just as little reason for my speaker to be registered to my name and location, collect personal data and have internet access to perform its basic functions as for my fridge, my toilet and my vacuum cleaner.

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While it might not be the case with some speakers out there, Sonos devices are much more than just speakers. They are computers that are designed to play music as a system, synchronized and controllable across multiple devices and platforms. I get that you disagree on what you think is a basic function, but Sonos devices need to be running the same software build on all devices, which makes updating at the beginning an important part of the setup process, and a core function.

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