Joint lawsuit against SONOS



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Just for the record, nobody unilaterally shut down anything. You chose to reset the unit to ‘as-new’ factory spec.

(For what it’s worth, this is rarely recommended as it generally doesn’t fix problems, and can destroy useful diagnostic info.)

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Just for the record, nobody unilaterally shut down anything. You chose to reset the unit to ‘as-new’ factory spec.

(For what it’s worth, this is rarely recommended as it generally doesn’t fix problems, and can destroy useful diagnostic info.)

The equipment manual says if there are problems with the operation of the equipment, one of the ways to solve the problem is to reset the settings to the factory state. As a user, I fulfilled all the requirements of the company to restore the equipment’s performance. In exchange, the company demanded additional information from me. At the same time, the company acted like terrorists, blocking my equipment and demanding that the amended service conditions be met.

the company acted like terrorists

Good grief. A variant of Godwin’s Law. I’m done.

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the company acted like terrorists

Good grief. A variant of Godwin’s Law. I’m done.

)))) This is not true. I just drew an analogy, and I am ready to admit the positive aspects of SONOS. I do not compare SONOS with either hitler or nazism. I compared SONOS to people who communicate using ultimatums.

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@ratty You express very correct thoughts, and legally they are very verified. However, there are aspects in which it should be guided primarily by human relations, and not paragraphs of the rules. If SONOS declares that we are users, it is the SONOS community, then before making such decisions about restrictions,  SONOS must consult with us.

I am conducting parallel correspondence with SONOS, and I offered them several options. I will publish the results of the correspondence. Unfortunately, when a company unilaterally shuts down my equipment, I have to defend myself.I believe that the restrictions that I encountered are just the beginning of a large number of restrictions that users will have to face in the future.

 

Glad you are talking with Sonos directly.  Perhaps you’ll have information to take to a lawyer to see if you have a case now.

 

 

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Hi everyone, please remember to try and stay friendly here on the community.@RUBIX2 tagged me in above and I’m happy to share some clarity. It sounds like the main confusion here is around what Location Services includes.

 

With iOS 13, Apple gave users the ability to control their privacy in a more granular way. This impacts the user experience for Apple partners like Sonos, especially during setup. We support this change although it does mean users have to grant permission in a new way for location services. The permissions for Location Services now include settings beyond just GPS which can be used to point to a location by Apps, such as WiFi scans and Bluetooth Low Energy.

The Sonos app uses both Wifi scanning and BLE to find Sonos devices during setup, so it will ask for Location Services permissions at startup, and can't search for devices on iOS without these permissions. You can use the option to allow the app to do so only once, or only when the app is running. You can read more about how Apple outlines their Location Services here. If you have any concerns about the Sonos privacy statement, please feel free to contact us at privacy@sonos.com.

 

@ratty You express very correct thoughts, and legally they are very verified. However, there are aspects in which it should be guided primarily by human relations, and not paragraphs of the rules. If SONOS declares that we are users, it is the SONOS community, then before making such decisions about restrictions,  SONOS must consult with us.

 

Huh?  Sonos has to consult with random people only the internet before making decision about terms and conditions?  That makes no sense.  Sonos is a public company, and even the share holders do not need to be consulted about such decisions. 

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@Ryan S Thank you for participating in the discussion. Please answer the questions simply and without frills:

  1. Does SONOS use GPS signal to configure equipment?
  2. Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

     

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@ratty You express very correct thoughts, and legally they are very verified. However, there are aspects in which it should be guided primarily by human relations, and not paragraphs of the rules. If SONOS declares that we are users, it is the SONOS community, then before making such decisions about restrictions,  SONOS must consult with us.

You are a purchaser - whether you use the device or not.  You don’t purchase a service and I doubt you’d get far claiming the status of Sonos ‘User’.  Joining the forum is again your choice; it’s not a prequisite to use the device.  There’s no MUST about it.   

If I read above correctly then you can set the device up using a post-code - maybe I’m wrong.  What you’re complaining about is more or less a consequence of the Sonos inexorable move to smartphone controllers and you’re simply stuck with that.  You’d get more support if you were protesting about that rather than your crusade against geo-logging! 

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Hi everyone, please remember to try and stay friendly here on the community.@RUBIX2 tagged me in above and I’m happy to share some clarity. It sounds like the main confusion here is around what Location Services includes.

 

With iOS 13, Apple gave users the ability to control their privacy in a more granular way. This impacts the user experience for Apple partners like Sonos, especially during setup. We support this change although it does mean users have to grant permission in a new way for location services. The permissions for Location Services now include settings beyond just GPS which can be used to point to a location by Apps, such as WiFi scans and Bluetooth Low Energy.

The Sonos app uses both Wifi scanning and BLE to find Sonos devices during setup, so it will ask for Location Services permissions at startup, and can't search for devices on iOS without these permissions. You can use the option to allow the app to do so only once, or only when the app is running. You can read more about how Apple outlines their Location Services here. If you have any concerns about the Sonos privacy statement, please feel free to contact us at privacy@sonos.com.

 

Thanks for replying@Ryan S ! Is it then correct that Sonos isn't transferring this location data outside owners network and either stored with Sonos or shared with third parties? (With either Android or iOS)

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@ratty You express very correct thoughts, and legally they are very verified. However, there are aspects in which it should be guided primarily by human relations, and not paragraphs of the rules. If SONOS declares that we are users, it is the SONOS community, then before making such decisions about restrictions,  SONOS must consult with us.

 

Huh?  Sonos has to consult with random people only the internet before making decision about terms and conditions?  That makes no sense.  Sonos is a public company, and even the share holders do not need to be consulted about such decisions. 

True, you and I are users. SONOS can consult with us. Although I agree with you that it is difficult.

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@ratty You express very correct thoughts, and legally they are very verified. However, there are aspects in which it should be guided primarily by human relations, and not paragraphs of the rules. If SONOS declares that we are users, it is the SONOS community, then before making such decisions about restrictions,  SONOS must consult with us.

You are a purchaser - whether you use the device or not.  You don’t purchase a service and I doubt you’d get far claiming the status of Sonos ‘User’.  Joining the forum is again your choice; it’s not a prequisite to use the device.  There’s no MUST about it.   

If I read above correctly then you can set the device up using a post-code - maybe I’m wrong.  What you’re complaining about is more or less a consequence of the Sonos inexorable move to smartphone controllers and you’re simply stuck with that.  You’d get more support if you were protesting about that rather than your crusade against geo-logging! 

Unfortunately you are mistaken. Since September of this year, setting up equipment using only a zip code is not possible. You must provide access to geolocation.

True, you and I are users. SONOS can consult with us. Although I agree with you that it is difficult.

 

Well, I’ve never seen Sonos consult for decisions like that.  The do listen to suggestions on here and have made changes based on feedback.  They also do periodic customer surveys.  In the case of some products, they’ve talked to professional installers for feedback on ideas.  

 

After seeing @Ryan’s response, are you more comfortable with turning on location servcies during install?

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True, you and I are users. SONOS can consult with us. Although I agree with you that it is difficult.

 

Well, I’ve never seen Sonos consult for decisions like that.  The do listen to suggestions on here and have made changes based on feedback.  They also do periodic customer surveys.  In the case of some products, they’ve talked to professional installers for feedback on ideas.  

 

After seeing @Ryan’s response, are you more comfortable with turning on location servcies during install?

Not yet, I have not received answers to two questions:

  1. Does SONOS use GPS signal to configure equipment?
  2. Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

True, you and I are users. SONOS can consult with us. Although I agree with you that it is difficult.

 

Well, I’ve never seen Sonos consult for decisions like that.  The do listen to suggestions on here and have made changes based on feedback.  They also do periodic customer surveys.  In the case of some products, they’ve talked to professional installers for feedback on ideas.  

 

After seeing @Ryan’s response, are you more comfortable with turning on location servcies during install?

Not yet, I have not received answers to two questions:

  1. Does SONOS use GPS signal to configure equipment?

 

 

It uses WiFi scanning and/or BLE.  It’s logical to assume not mentioning using GPS means that it’s not, but you didn’t get your direct “No”

 

  1. Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

I would speculate that it’s not impossible.  Setup needs to identify the device that needs to be setup, and it could do that if the device were physically plugged into the network.  So that should work without WiFi scanning or BLE.  However, most smart devices don’t do that, and I would guess most Sonos customers don’t want to physically connect every speaker during setup.  My guess would be since the majority of customers don’t want to direct connect, don’t mind location services turned on, and there would be additional coding and testing for an alternative setup method supported, they opted not to include it.  And of course, the latest Sonos speaker, Move, doesn’t even have an ethernet port.

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Not yet, I have not received answers to two questions:

  1. Does SONOS use GPS signal to configure equipment?
  2. Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

@Ryan S is it possible for you to answer these questions please 👍

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True, you and I are users. SONOS can consult with us. Although I agree with you that it is difficult.

 

Well, I’ve never seen Sonos consult for decisions like that.  The do listen to suggestions on here and have made changes based on feedback.  They also do periodic customer surveys.  In the case of some products, they’ve talked to professional installers for feedback on ideas.  

 

After seeing @Ryan’s response, are you more comfortable with turning on location servcies during install?

Not yet, I have not received answers to two questions:

  1. Does SONOS use GPS signal to configure equipment?

 

 

It uses WiFi scanning and/or BLE.  It’s logical to assume not mentioning using GPS means that it’s not, but you didn’t get your direct “No”

 

  1. Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

I would speculate that it’s not impossible.  Setup needs to identify the device that needs to be setup, and it could do that if the device were physically plugged into the network.  So that should work without WiFi scanning or BLE.  However, most smart devices don’t do that, and I would guess most Sonos customers don’t want to physically connect every speaker during setup.  My guess would be since the majority of customers don’t want to direct connect, don’t mind location services turned on, and there would be additional coding and testing for an alternative setup method supported, they opted not to include it.  And of course, the latest Sonos speaker, Move, doesn’t even have an ethernet port.

I wonder, besides ble, if they are using the same process as always, it's just a policy change with the mobile OS's that is requiring the permission check. Just speculation on my part while I await Ryan's response.

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Serious question: Do you have a facebook? 

 

If you answered yes, you really need to rethink your “right to privacy.” 

 

 

Astonished to return to this thread and find it still being taken seriously.

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Astonished to return to this thread and find it still being taken seriously.

 

Agreed… 

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@Calyptotis I contacted Sonos and I've pasted the reply I got from Sonos Privacy below. The bolded part was added by me 

----begin quote

In order to set up Sonos on WiFi, the Sonos application requires access to scan nearby wireless networks. As this information can be used to extrapolate a user's location, both Android and iOS have locked visibility of wireless networks behind the "location services" permission in recent versions. As Sonos needs to be able to see nearby WiFi networks in order to complete the setup process, this app permission is required. Sonos does not use this information except to 1) perform wireless setup and 2) auto-populate your registration postal code and predetermine the radio locale for your system.

All data is handled in consistency with the Sonos Privacy Statement and End User License Agreement. For more information on how Sonos collects and utilizes data, you can view the Privacy Statement here:
https://www.sonos.com/legal/privacy

----end quote

 

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Not yet, I have not received answers to two questions:

  1. Does SONOS use GPS signal to configure equipment?
  2. Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

@Ryan S is it possible for you to answer these questions please 👍

Thanks for sharing that reply, RUBIX2. We also try to be very clear in our privacy policy here on what exactly is gathered. Regarding physical locations, we only gather general geographic location (country and postcode). 

Why is it impossible to configure equipment without providing access?

This is because the app is designed to use WiFi scanning and BLE to find Sonos devices that haven’t been set up. As I mentioned above, and in that message from the privacy team, these functions are included in “Location Services” permissions. 

“Location Services” does not just mean GPS. It includes most information an app could gather that could be used to extrapolate a user’s location. As to using GPS, to the best of my knowledge, we don’t use the GPS on mobile devices during configuration of equipment. Location identification for music services and country registration is pulled off of GeoIP, which is considered Functional Data on the privacy policy above.

If your question is “could it be possible to design the app in such a way that it does not find players using WiFi scanning or BLE?” I don’t know if I can give you a satisfactory answer. Melvimbe has some good ideas there, but as the app and product is designed today, it’s not possible to set up without Location Services enabled during that first install. 

 

So it really is all about the postal code?  :yum:

Also, what are the odds @Calyptotis accepts this explanation?  

@Calyptotis Give an update.

I agree this is not ok. I just upgraded my phone (it's always been an Android) and now the new phone and newly installed app is giving me this same BS. 

@Sonos you should be ashamed for this change. You can definitely just ask for a zip code or even use wifi generic location information. I'm sure there are better ways to get the location information needed for radio stations.

Sonos refund me or fix this. Make this right for your loyal customers. Your products aren't cheap. We have many options yet we buy Sonos for the quality not your info grab. Your losing trust. Even though a few people say they're against taking action on this small forumb if this gets out to the masses I'm sure you'll see the rides turn.

I have one simple ask. Send an update that ask for the zip code instead of this current lockout. That would make everything better. Thanks 

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