Joint lawsuit against SONOS



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I’m really more interested in hearing the outcome rather than actually debating the matter. I personally don’t know the legalities of changing the “terms of service”, or products being “subject to change”, or software being “used under licence” etc. So I can’t contribute very much to such a debate anyway.

 

I don’t know that you really need to know the legalities of it.  I have little doubt that the legal folks of Sonos know exactly what they can and cannot do.  Would Sonos really base their entire business on gaining access to location data if it was not needed and gathering such data could shutter the whole business?  I don’t think so.  It’s one thing for Google and others to skirt the law in this regard, when selling private data is a large profit center for them.  Sonos has stated they won’t sell that data so there isn’t any motivation for them in that regards.

 

And yes,  Sonos could decide to sell the data at some point, and then they would be in violation of the terms of service.  Then you could sue them.  You can’t sue a company for something they haven’t done yet.

 

Also the claim was that Sonos can’t change the terms of service for existing  users.  I wouldn’t bet that that the terms of service states something like “we reserve the right to change the terms at a any time”.  Not going to bother checking.  As well, terms of service would not be by user specifically as it would be by product.  There most certainly can be different terms for a new product.  So the fact that you currently have products setup does not mean Sonos can’t put specific terms when setting up a new product. And….it probably would be helpful if you actually had the terms of service in writing at the time that you purchased your devices, to actually prove that terms were changed illegally.  I don’t think a judge is just going to take your word for it.  Maybe a lawyer will dig that up for you (at an hourly rate), but I definitely would want to do that research myself rather than pay a lawyer.

 

 

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As stated, this is nothing new.  You had to give Sonos your location when you first set it up, otherwise, it would not be working today.  Stop with the silly lawsuit nonsense, any lawyer who hears your case will laugh you out of their office.  

Of course, SONOS always had the opportunity to determine the region of use using IP, but SONOS did not request your geolocation, and even more so did not limit the right to use equipment if you do not provide information from the GPS.

As stated, this is nothing new.  You had to give Sonos your location when you first set it up, otherwise, it would not be working today.  Stop with the silly lawsuit nonsense, any lawyer who hears your case will laugh you out of their office.  

SONOS has never claimed your location. You are apparently mistaken.

 

Not mistaken at all.  You needed to give a location in order to satisfy geo-blocking, and to list your local stations via TuneIn.  This has been required since I first purchased in 2008, and you could not have registered Sonos without it.  Your lawsuit is nonsense, and any lawyer worth their salt is going to spot that fact within 30 seconds.  

Userlevel 2
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I’m really more interested in hearing the outcome rather than actually debating the matter. I personally don’t know the legalities of changing the “terms of service”, or products being “subject to change”, or software being “used under licence” etc. So I can’t contribute very much to such a debate anyway.

 

I don’t know that you really need to know the legalities of it.  I have little doubt that the legal folks of Sonos know exactly what they can and cannot do.  Would Sonos really base their entire business on gaining access to location data if it was not needed and gathering such data could shutter the whole business?  I don’t think so.  It’s one thing for Google and others to skirt the law in this regard, when selling private data is a large profit center for them.  Sonos has stated they won’t sell that data so there isn’t any motivation for them in that regards.

 

And yes,  Sonos could decide to sell the data at some point, and then they would be in violation of the terms of service.  Then you could sue them.  You can’t sue a company for something they haven’t done yet.

 

Also the claim was that Sonos can’t change the terms of service for existing  users.  I wouldn’t bet that that the terms of service states something like “we reserve the right to change the terms at a any time”.  Not going to bother checking.  As well, terms of service would not be by user specifically as it would be by product.  There most certainly can be different terms for a new product.  So the fact that you currently have products setup does not mean Sonos can’t put specific terms when setting up a new product. And….it probably would be helpful if you actually had the terms of service in writing at the time that you purchased your devices, to actually prove that terms were changed illegally.  I don’t think a judge is just going to take your word for it.  Maybe a lawyer will dig that up for you (at an hourly rate), but I definitely would want to do that research myself rather than pay a lawyer.

 

 

Yes, indeed, it is now difficult to find the service conditions that were in force at the time of purchase of the equipment. The only evidence that I now have is that the equipment is not working, because SONOS does not allow me to use it if I do not provide location information. For several years, the equipment worked without location information, and now does not work.

Userlevel 2
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As stated, this is nothing new.  You had to give Sonos your location when you first set it up, otherwise, it would not be working today.  Stop with the silly lawsuit nonsense, any lawyer who hears your case will laugh you out of their office.  

SONOS has never claimed your location. You are apparently mistaken.

 

Not mistaken at all.  You needed to give a location in order to satisfy geo-blocking, and to list your local stations via TuneIn.  This has been required since I first purchased in 2008, and you could not have registered Sonos without it.  Your lawsuit is nonsense, and any lawyer worth their salt is going to spot that fact within 30 seconds.  

Once again, specifying the zip code in your account is not the same as requiring a location on a GPS signal. If you have not previously specified a zip code in your account, your equipment continued to work. Now if you do not provide a signal from the GPS you cannot use the equipment.You feel the difference?

Userlevel 3
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Both SoundCloud and Tidal need to verify your location to make sure that you meet the legal requirements to receive the services they provide.  Does this not concern you?

 

Hello. I have been using SoundCloud and Tidal for many years. None of the services ever asked me for geolocation.

Sonos shares this information with them. It's in the privacy policy. 

 

No. SONOS does not provide them with any information. SONOS speaks about this in its privacy policy. SoundCloud never asks for your geolocation. They don’t need it. This is a free platform. As for TIDAL, it is important for them where the account is registered. But they determine the location by IP address. For example, my account is registered with a European IP, because in the USA a subscription costs 19.99$ and in Europe 9.99 euros. (~ $ 12) 

But you still have not heard the main thing. SONOS restricts users from the right to use purchased equipment if you do not provide location information. For many years, SONOS did not require this information, and since September it began to demand.

It doesn't concern me no. The location 

Userlevel 7
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I’m loving the title “Joint Lawsuit”.  That does require others to be interested in joining, which does not appear to be the case!? Good luck with that.

Yes, indeed, it is now difficult to find the service conditions that were in force at the time of purchase of the equipment. The only evidence that I now have is that the equipment is not working, because SONOS does not allow me to use it if I do not provide location information. For several years, the equipment worked without location information, and now does not work.

 

That isn’t evidence.  It does not prove that you were allowed to setup speakers without location data previously, and that if you were, Sonos were not allowed to change the terms of service.  Your going to need documentation for that.  I can’t see winning a case when all you’re coming forth with is your recollection of how it used to be.

 

Honestly, how much money do you expect you could win anyway?  Do you think you could get full value for your speakers or a prorated amount based on years of service.  Do you think Sonos would have to cover your legal fees?  Emotional damages?  

Once again, specifying the zip code in your account is not the same as requiring a location on a GPS signal. If you have not previously specified a zip code in your account, your equipment continued to work. Now if you do not provide a signal from the GPS you cannot use the equipment.You feel the difference?

 

Sonos could never work without a zip code entry, so no, I do not “feel the difference”.

Tell you what, put your money where your mouth is. Stop all the blustering and go consult a lawyer.  When you get a docket number, post it here.  Until then, stop wasting bandwidth. 

 

I rebooted the playbar to the factory settings

It’s an ‘as-new' product then. You must go through initial setup once more, just the same as any new purchaser would.

Userlevel 2
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I’m loving the title “Joint Lawsuit”.  That does require others to be interested in joining, which does not appear to be the case!? Good luck with that.

Yes, unfortunately, most are indifferent to their privacy. Thank you for your wishes.

I rebooted the playbar to the factory settings

It’s an ‘as-new' product then. You must go through initial setup once more, just the same as any new purchaser would.

 

Quite true.  A factory reset effectively de-registers the product.  Any re-registry requires agreement to the current terms. 

*whooosh*

What’s that I hear?  Why, it sounds like any chance of a case is flushing down the commode.  

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I rebooted the playbar to the factory settings

It’s an ‘as-new' product then. You must go through initial setup once more, just the same as any new purchaser would.

Legally, you are right. But actually this is old equipment. And they require me to fulfill new requirements with which I do not agree.

Userlevel 7
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Legally, you are right. 

Then legally you are in that case wrong.  Why not just give a false location?

Userlevel 2
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Legally, you are right. 

Then legally you are in that case wrong.  Why not just give a false location?

It is not possible to indicate the false location))) The SONOS application requires the provision of a signal from a GPS iPhone. If I block access to the GPS signal, the application refuses to configure the equipment. This has not happened before. This requirement appeared in SONOS starting from 13 iOS. And earlier, SONOS disabled the ability to configure equipment from a computer. Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. This is where users swear: https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/cannot-add-speaker-with-new-desktop-controller-app-update-6815782

 Of course, SONOS always had the opportunity to determine the region of use using IP

 

 Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. 

 

 

Make up your mind, will you!

 

 

 

 

Userlevel 3
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Legally, you are right. 

Then legally you are in that case wrong.  Why not just give a false location?

It is not possible to indicate the false location))) The SONOS application requires the provision of a signal from a GPS iPhone. If I block access to the GPS signal, the application refuses to configure the equipment. This has not happened before. This requirement appeared in SONOS starting from 13 iOS. And earlier, SONOS disabled the ability to configure equipment from a computer. Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. This is where users swear: https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/cannot-add-speaker-with-new-desktop-controller-app-update-6815782

@Ryan S can you please explain why Sonos requires location permissions in the app to set up a speaker and will not allow you to proceed without granting it?  

Your privacy statement hasn't been updated since March 2019. Will you be updating the policy to let us know how and why this is collected or not, transferred and stored or not and shared or not with third parties?

 

Userlevel 3
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 Of course, SONOS always had the opportunity to determine the region of use using IP

 

 Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. 

 

 

Make up your mind, will you!

 

 

 

 

I don't know if you are purposely trolling this poster but they've been clear that the issue is with location from their phone which they  seem to think can be very precise, rather than zip/postal code or region which isn't or ip which they can use a VPN to mask.

Correct them if they are wrong.

It seems that Calyptotis does not have any objection to spoof their IP to get cheaper Tidal - isn't that a form of fraud, by the way? - So why not spoof your GPS coordinates, if I'm not mistaken there are ways to do this.

 

Anyhow, I've noticed that the setup process of many wifi-devices requires GPS location access, apparently to ascertain which devices are near you. Is this not a feature from the operating systems and should the OP therefore not also be suing  Apple and Google?

 

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It seems that Calyptotis does not have any objection to spoof their IP to get cheaper Tidal - isn't that a form of fraud, by the way? - So why not spoof your GPS coordinates, if I'm not mistaken there are ways to do this.

 

If not fraud extremely unethical. 

 

Userlevel 2
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 Of course, SONOS always had the opportunity to determine the region of use using IP

 

 Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. 

 

 

Make up your mind, will you!

 

 

 

 

I don't know if you are purposely trolling this poster but they've been clear that the issue is with location from their phone which they  seem to think can be very precise, rather than zip/postal code or region which isn't or ip which they can use a VPN to mask.

Correct them if they are wrong.

Right. The IP address or zip code is not accurate information about the location of the equipment. SONOS wants to access accurate location information based on the GPS singal of your phone.

Userlevel 3
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 Of course, SONOS always had the opportunity to determine the region of use using IP

 

 Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. 

 

 

Make up your mind, will you!

 

 

 

 

I don't know if you are purposely trolling this poster but they've been clear that the issue is with location from their phone which they  seem to think can be very precise, rather than zip/postal code or region which isn't or ip which they can use a VPN to mask.

Correct them if they are wrong.

Right. The IP address or zip code is not accurate information about the location of the equipment. SONOS wants to access accurate location information based on the GPS singal of your phone.gal

 

 

If you lead with this and not the lawsuit threat this thread may have played out differently. 

 

Userlevel 2
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It seems that Calyptotis does not have any objection to spoof their IP to get cheaper Tidal - isn't that a form of fraud, by the way? - So why not spoof your GPS coordinates, if I'm not mistaken there are ways to do this.

 

Anyhow, I've noticed that the setup process of many wifi-devices requires GPS location access, apparently to ascertain which devices are near you. Is this not a feature from the operating systems and should the OP therefore not also be suing  Apple and Google?

 

Fortunately or unfortunately, faking GPS coordinates on the iPhone is not possible. You can drown out the GPS signal, but it is not possible to fake. But still, these are ways to get around the limitations. They do not provide an answer to the basic question, how to set up equipment in the place where the no GPS signal? Imagine, you using equipment with a local server in the basement of your home. And your teeophone does not catch GPS signal. What are you going to do?

For example, here people just write about it: https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/cannot-add-speaker-with-new-desktop-controller-app-update-6815782

The main functionality of the player is to play music. He can play music from the Internet, and can play from a local server. When I refuse to provide access to geolocation, SONOS disables the main functionality of the device, play music. If you turn off the location services on your phone, you will not lose the main functionality of the device-make calls. In the case of SONOS, I lost the main functionality of the device - playing music.

Userlevel 2
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It seems that Calyptotis does not have any objection to spoof their IP to get cheaper Tidal - isn't that a form of fraud, by the way? - So why not spoof your GPS coordinates, if I'm not mistaken there are ways to do this.

 

If not fraud extremely unethical. 

 

I would not say that it is not ethical. This is saving your money. For example, Apple Music in Russia costs ~ $ 2.79 In the US, several times more expensive. And Reddit has a separate topic on how to connect a Russian account. Moreover, it is worth considering that when registering, you agree to the terms of the country in which the account is registered. For example, in my TIDAL account there are not some songs that are in the TIDAL account registered in the USA. And yet, if the company's wants to limit you in using ways to save, companies have such opportunities. For example, NETFLIX does not allow viewing content using VPN, and TIDAL has no restrictions.

Userlevel 2
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 Of course, SONOS always had the opportunity to determine the region of use using IP

 

 Because it is not possible to determine your location from a computer. 

 

 

Make up your mind, will you!

 

 

 

 

I don't know if you are purposely trolling this poster but they've been clear that the issue is with location from their phone which they  seem to think can be very precise, rather than zip/postal code or region which isn't or ip which they can use a VPN to mask.

Correct them if they are wrong.

Right. The IP address or zip code is not accurate information about the location of the equipment. SONOS wants to access accurate location information based on the GPS singal of your phone.gal

 

 

If you lead with this and not the lawsuit threat this thread may have played out differently. 

 

I am conducting parallel correspondence with SONOS, and I offered them several options. I will publish the results of the correspondence. Unfortunately, when a company unilaterally shuts down my equipment, I have to defend myself.I believe that the restrictions that I encountered are just the beginning of a large number of restrictions that users will have to face in the future.

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