Library 'full' issue


Userlevel 2
So it seems (now that I've finally got my MP3 drive recognised and the indexing done) that I have a new error... that I have 'too much stuff' (I'm paraphrasing the error that comes up in the Set Up Music Library screen). From another forum I found this wonderful nugget:

You can see the Network Matrix by using a web browser to go to http://###.###.###.###:1400/support/review (replace the #'s with the IP from one of your ZonePlayers. You can fnd the IP on your handheld Controller's Settings-->About My Sonos System screen, or Help-->About... on the Desktop software).

And within that I found this:

Title
MAX 65000
COUNT 35827
Store Size 3604480
Store Used 3604390
Entries Size 262144
Entries Used 75493
Conflicts 21988


Okay, so I haven't broken the 65k limit for the number of tracks I can store (I'd have been amazed to be honest), but I do seem to have hit the headroom for 'Store Size' and I've got 21,988 conflicts, which doesn't sound good either.

What do those two stats mean in practical terms, and what can I do about it? Anyone know?

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48 replies

Ignore "Conflicts". They are a natural facet of the use of hash tables for storing the index, and do not affect the library limit.

"Store Size" relates to the cumulative size of all the unique character strings in the index, including file pathnames and tag values. Some people have gone to extreme lengths to reduce filename lengths by renaming folders as 1, 2, 3... and music files as 1.mp3, 2.mp3, 3.mp3, etc. There are tools like Mp3tag whch can make this quite simple as a bulk operation. Since Sonos indexes using the tag values, renaming files/folders doesn't matter that much.

Do you have long tag values? Classical works can tend to carry rather long tags.
Userlevel 2
I don't really know whether my average album has long tags or not, really (compared with other people's). Pretty much all of my albums are using ID3v1 tags fetched from FreeDB, and there are quite a lot of classical albums.

I do use long file names in an Artist>Album folder structure, but if that doesn't make much of a difference, it'll be about those tags I guess. I hardly input any myself, since FreeDB has info on most every album it seems, so I'm rather at the mercy of the people who input the data for each album.

Assuming this is my problem, what can I do about it? Can I set up multiple libraries and split my collection into bits so each bit is well under the limit? (I'm really hoping the answer isn't, "There's nothing you can do. You're hosed" because that would be very sad indeed!)
You could split your library onto more than one share, but you'd only be able to index a subset of the library at a time to avoid hitting the cumulative limit.

Search the forums for threads containing "limit", "65k", "65000" in the title and there are lots of (a) complaints and (b) suggestions of potential workarounds.

One option is to use Windows Media Sharing and have Sonos directly access the WMP server.

As previously noted, reducing the pathname length is an option which you might wish to explore. Tag editors can often be told to rename all tracks to - say - the track number plus extension (e.g. MP3).
I do use long file names in an Artist>Album folder structure, but if that doesn't make much of a difference, it'll be about those tags I guess. I hardly input any myself, since FreeDB has info on most every album it seems, so I'm rather at the mercy of the people who input the data for each album.

A German user some time ago did some tests, and found out that the file paths are probably not compressed/hashed, and that it does make a difference to keep file paths tidy.

I suggest you use a tool like mp3tag to rename the paths according to the tags. I would suggest something like %album%\%track% to keep it short. You can always quickly go back to other schemes provided all your music is accurately tagged to begin with. Or if you have very long album names something like $left(%album%,10)_$right(%album%,2)\%track% which will cut out any characters between the leftmost 10 and rightmost 2 of the album name (gives slightly strange results with names shorter than 12).

Or maybe even $left(%artist%,10)_$left(%album%,10)_$right(%album%,2)\%track% to solve the "greatest hits" problem (multiple albums with the same name)
I was developing the same problem (Store Size being consumed at a great rate).

I renamed my tracks to be just the track numbers. (eg. 01.mp3, 02.mp3, 03.mp3, etc).

It fixed my issue.

As Avee said, you can easily revert to a more human-friendly track name scheme at a later date as all the data is still held within the track tags.

Since I only interact with my music via browsers, like Sonos, which build their indices using tag data, the physical track names are invisible and irrelevant to me.

If you have dBpoweramp this puts a right click menu item into the Windows Explorer, making full information about the physical track just a right click away anyway.

This option would only be available to you if your tracks for each album were stored in their own directory.

If you have dBpoweramp this puts a right click menu item into the Windows Explorer, making full information about the physical track just a right click away anyway.

Audioshell can do this as a tooltip on mouseover:
http://www.softpointer.com/AudioShell.htm
dBpoweramp also installs a mouseover tooltip, IIRC.
Userlevel 2
I know this may sound like a silly question, but why is there such a limit in the Sonos system? In this day and age, database architecture is so good at handling massive data sets that I'm surprised there are any limits users would actually notice.
I know this may sound like a silly question, but why is there such a limit in the Sonos system? In this day and age, database architecture is so good at handling massive data sets that I'm surprised there are any limits users would actually notice.

Sonos does not use a database. This would require a computer running, or at the very least, a more powerful NAS. This would mean Sonos reliability and performace would be counting on the speed of the PC or NAS, and the user's ability to maintain a server (See Squeezebox as an example). This reliance on the user's PC was too big a risk for Sonos, who wanted rock solid reliability. So instead, all search tags are stored in memory in a hash table on each ZP, which allows fast, reliable and redundant performance. But one of the tradeoffs for this fast, reliable and redundant performance is you are limited by the resources on a ZP. Thus the need for a limit in number of tracks, and number of searchable tags. This can be overcome by running WMP Sever on a PC, or looking in the unsupported area for a few user created workarounds.
There are strong suspicions that the maximum track count is now held back by the amount of flash in the earlier ZonePlayers - with which Sonos presumably wishes to retain compatibililty. Maybe one day they'll come up with a "ZoneIndexer" network appliance with expandable memory. Who knows.
Userlevel 2
I'll admit I'm no expert in this area. In fact, I'll admit I have no experience with audio on a PC beyond making high quality MP3s of my CDs and playing them over WinAmp in the past. So scanning through the (sometimes very technical) threads on server workarounds is just bringing me to the realization that I need a primer - to at least explain the terminology.

Doing a Google for WMP Server isn't very helpful either. There's a wikipedia article on Windows Media Services, but that seems to be something that runs on Windows Server 2008 (the corporate replacement for NT?). I'm running Windows 7 64-bit so I'm guessing that's no good to me.

Hmmm... is there a walk-through I'm not seeing with my weak search-fu that explains how to set up Windows Media Player with an MP3 collection and Sonos desktop controller for a PC?

Feeling like I'm technologically inadequate now....
Start with http://www.sonos.com/support/help/3.3/en/Sonos_User_Guide/Sonos_User_Guide/Chap07_new/Windows_Media_Player_11.htm
and https://sonos.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/sonos.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1054
Userlevel 3
Badge +1
I'm no expert in this, but I have seen many posts complaining about the track limit ceiling, and given that the BR100 ZoneBridge is using Wireless-G technology, I would have thought ratty's ZoneIndexer idea, built as part of an updated Wireless Bridge could be a viable solution. In my view, a box with several expansion slots for standard memory cards would be ideal. Then a Sonos user could add as much, or as little, memory as meets their current library needs. Presumably the memory would need to be flash in case of power failure, or maybe the index could be re-built following such an outage. Plugging another card in should not be too difficult for most people. This ZoneIndexer could sit out of sight, out of mind, quietly doing the all important biz in the background. All Round Good Egg is correct... all the work-arounds are too complex for average users!
I would have thought ratty's ZoneIndexer idea...
Errr... Majik's idea, actually
Userlevel 3
Badge +1
Oops! Sorry. As whose idea it was, it's a good one!
Userlevel 2
Okay, so Majik's idea of a ZoneIndexer with slots for flash memory cards / USB sticks to upgrade your index size as you need expansion is a really good one. Very cool.

And I just can't understand why my search of the FAQ for WMP server-related articles didn't bring up the link you posted for me, ratty. I appreciate you helping out and not telling me I'm an idiot for not finding those links myself.

Now I'm off to experiment for a while and see what I can get running....
Userlevel 2
Well, I've followed the instructions on the two links ratty suggested (good links, by the way). but Windows Media doesn't show up in the Music Services area of the Sonos Desktop Controller.

Perhaps it's because in this article the interface pictures they show of WMP 11 aren't like mine. Mine looks like the interface from the other article. The differences begin to happen in stage 6 of the first article, where it says a check mark should appear next to the devices and it shows a pretty little graphic. Well, that graphic doesn't appear on my WMP 11 anywhere that I can see it.

Leaves me wondering what I should do next. This sounds like a good solution for me... if only it showed in the Sonos controller software. Anyone have any ideas, or have I used up my newbie good will on these forums yet?
You could have WMP12. There is a related comment at http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=20479
Userlevel 2
Yep, I'm running WMP 12 which has doubtless installed itself as part of the Windows 7 "Don't worry your pretty head about it, we'll do it for you" policy of updates. And indeed my Sonos devices appear under 'Other Libraries', which I assume from the other thread is a bad thing.



UPDATE: Seems like I have some kind of fundamental misunderstanding (despite the FAQs and forums) of how Music Services work. So it might not be the fault of WMP 12 at all. Maybe

When I go to the Music Services tab in my Sonos desktop controller it shows me five options to sign up to things: Rhapsody, Last.fm, Wolfgang's Vault, Sonos Sound Lab, and Even More. I figured I'd sign up to Last.fm so clicked on the Start button. I followed the simple instructions and created an account, then went back to Music Services expecting to find Last.fm with lots of options, to start listening, to create a seed for a playlist, or whatever. But instead I've found the other four options and Last.fm has simply disappeared. Gone. There aren't any more options in my Library that are Last.fm related. Nothing extra on the Radio tab I can see.

So here's my thought. I'm clearly an idiot who just doesn't get it. Those music services (Last.fm and WMP 12 server) are both live and linked into Sonos. I'm simply missing how to access their options. Anyone else reckon I'm about right? Anyone know where I should be looking?
Userlevel 2
Take it back. I just read that Last.fm only works in the US, UK and Germany (apart from Scrobbling, which really isn't what I'm after right now). So I shouldn't worry about that red herring since I'm in New Zealand for the next month.

So all told that little side trip didn't tell me any more about what I should or shouldn't be doing.
Check that your Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service is running. Try disabling the firewall temporarily.
Userlevel 2
I think this must be linked to the fact that WMP 12 lists the Sonos players under 'other libraries' as the other thread said. It doesn't sound like a big deal but it may be. Here's what Windows help on Homegroups says: you can share libraries with people within your homegroup using the 'share with' command in Windows Explorer. Great... except that the libraries listed there are the ones you set up as folders within the 'libraries' part of the OS structure. When WMP 12 creates 'other libraries' for Sonos players, those don't show up in the same place. So you can't share them. And you can't do those shares/network functions within WMP 12 it seems. Ergo, the Sonos players don't get shared out.

I don't know. I'm on thin ice here knowing how the architecture holds together and how WMP 12 is communicating with the Sonos players and the controller. The WMP network sharing service seems to be running, according to Task Manager, so I can't think what else is going on.
I'm afraid I'm an XP die-hard (though there are a couple of Win7 boxes which I had to stop WMP sharing from), so I suggest you touch base with Sonos Support on this one.
I think this must be linked to the fact that WMP 12 lists the Sonos players under 'other libraries' ... Try to not worry so much about that stuff. Notice the ZonePlayers are listed on the screenshots on the Win 7 setup FAQ link, which as you say, resembles your installation. They're supposed to be there.

It's been asked, but you haven't indicated if you've checked that the Sonos "Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service" is active on your system. From the PC Desktop Controller, it's at: File --> Preferences --> General tab --> Advanced Options --> Show music from Windows Media Servers. I know that's listed before Step 1 at the Windows 7 FAQ link, so you've probably already checked, but if that isn't activated, WMP won't show up on the Controller no matter what you do after that.

So, to be clear here, you've activated the Sonos "Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service", you've followed the Win 7 FAQ steps to activate media streaming on WMP 12, and it doesn't show up on your Controller?
Userlevel 2
I checked in Task Manager like I mentioned. The service called 'WMP Network Sharing' is running. Which is what ratty was asking, right?

I also checked that within the Sonos Desktop Controller, the Windows Media Servers checkbox is checked.

"So, to be clear here, you've activated the Sonos "Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service", you've followed the Win 7 FAQ steps to activate media streaming on WMP 12, and it doesn't show up on your Controller?"

Exactly that, NoBoB. That's the situation in a nutshell.