Support ratings



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96 replies

Userlevel 2
+1

Count me in...
Userlevel 2
+1

Me too. It's a must ahve feature to handle big music collections.
Userlevel 2
+1.

Cheers and beers,

Garmpe
Userlevel 2
Badge
+1

Count me in
Userlevel 2
I would like to be able to rate my music via the Sonos Controller. You know, 1 star to 5 stars.
Userlevel 2
Badge +2
My preferences:
  • Configurable - enable/disable (for parties, etc)
  • Write to standard tags (not a separate store where my edits will be unusable from media player/winamp/and so on)
  • Ability to edit tags would rock - especially genre tags (which I think makes alot of sense in conjunction with ratings)
  • Otherwise: Simple ratings will do



It took me less than a week of proper sonos usage to want this.
Userlevel 2
Ratings and dynamic playlists are very important to me. This and scrobbling/last.fm are the only things stopping me from using sonos exclusively.

I don't mind Sonos writing to my share, but would prefer a settings option to restrict it in some way.

Rating through the Controller is also important.

Cheers,

Phil
How about ratings for multiple users? (...I might rate a track different to my wife.)

For any one track it would be nice to write/display a rating for a particular user.
Userlevel 2
I would like this feature - I'm not bothered too much about being able to rate from the controller (read-only vs. write == can of worms) but I would really like it if the sonos knew about existing rating tags and (in the absence of dynamic playlists) had a few built in "5* rated" type playlists.
Userlevel 2
Over time Sonos has shown a respect for requests supported by forum members, so I'm adding my vote here for support of ratings as well. I keep tracks that aren't my favorites because they are part of an album but I would love to play only those that I have "top rated".
Userlevel 2
I could support this idea if the ratings info was held in meta data that was not part of the mp3 itself. Is this possible?

In principle, I like the idea of ratings, but not at the expense of modifications to my carefully tagged media files :-)

d2k
Badge +2
NO!!!!

You might realise by now, that I do NOT support this feature request.

Please Sonos, if you ever consider this PLEASE do not change your fundamental read only principle, or at least make it a configurable option with a default setting of OFF!

I have spents hours, days, months, sorting out my ID3 tags, and I really really do not want Sonos or anything else going and updating them for me :-)

d2k


I certainly understand your concern. I spend some time going through tags myself, and definitely do not want my Sonos player to change them UNLESS I explicitly edit the metadata myself. I do not want my Sonos to update metadata through the internet. However, an option to "Enable manual music rating" should save the ratings as track metadata. Similarly should an option to "Enable manual metadata editing" store the updates as track metadata so that it can be displayed next time the track plays. In my opinion, a function for rating music (or editing metadata in general) has no value unless the data can be utilised directly.

Having said all this, I see a potential problem at parties... I usually trust the people I invite to my place, but Murphy's law indicates that at some point, some guest(s) will render some metadata completely invalid. Consequently, metadata edit should be disabled in "Simple Mode"...
Userlevel 2
I support the proposition to have Sonos read track rating from the music file metadata as long as the rating is actually part of the music file metadata (proprietary rating systems may certainly be omitted).

I also support those who want to change (edit) the track rating--and store the rating in the music file metadata so it can be utilised when playing on a PC, iPod or whatever.

I also support extended edit-capabilities so that misspellings (e.g. track/album/artist name), misclassification (typically genre) and other track metadata can be corrected on-the-fly as I discover them. Although the "read-only" concept makes you feel safe, it is also one of the major limitations to the Sonos--I bought my Sonos to enjoy my music independent of a computer, and the experience would only improve if I don't need a computer for everything that goes beyond simple music playback...

Finally, I applaud Aaron's suggestion (and design) for rating-based queue-management (configurable to be activated or not).

Regards,
Asbjørn


NO!!!!

You might realise by now, that I do NOT support this feature request.

Please Sonos, if you ever consider this PLEASE do not change your fundamental read only principle, or at least make it a configurable option with a default setting of OFF!

I have spents hours, days, months, sorting out my ID3 tags, and I really really do not want Sonos or anything else going and updating them for me :-)

d2k
Userlevel 2
I throw my hat into the ring of support for song ratings (showing on the controller, rating from the controller, and playlists based on ratings).

Here is where I would rank it compared to some other proposed features I support:

1) Cross Fading between songs
2) Song Ratings
3) Support for Last.fm
Badge +2
I support the proposition to have Sonos read track rating from the music file metadata as long as the rating is actually part of the music file metadata (proprietary rating systems may certainly be omitted).

I also support those who want to change (edit) the track rating--and store the rating in the music file metadata so it can be utilised when playing on a PC, iPod or whatever.

I also support extended edit-capabilities so that misspellings (e.g. track/album/artist name), misclassification (typically genre) and other track metadata can be corrected on-the-fly as I discover them. Although the "read-only" concept makes you feel safe, it is also one of the major limitations to the Sonos--I bought my Sonos to enjoy my music independent of a computer, and the experience would only improve if I don't need a computer for everything that goes beyond simple music playback...

Finally, I applaud Aaron's suggestion (and design) for rating-based queue-management (configurable to be activated or not).

Regards,
Asbjørn
mark_anderson_us,

I moved the post, join the chorus.
Badge +9
ratings is a big "ask-for" item around. i know what you mean with the rating plus updating playlist option...great combo.

Sonos can do half of what you are asking......kind of.

Sonos imports (very well) any outside playlists, and it does a great job of importing itunes lists...even the live ones. however, as you can guess, it updates it "as of the second that you update the sonos" so if your live list changes often, sonos would need to update often.

That means some lists are fine. For example, if you want to create a list of say... the 1st track of every album (not sure why, but use this for example) you can set a rule in itunes to make the list, then update your sonos and there it is. If you add a couple new albums to itunes...and thus the list would change, you would need to update your sonos (reindex is what i mean when i say this...only takes a few seconds other than if you made major changes) but you would have to update it anyways because you had added new music.

I have plenty of "auto" lists that work great with the sonos. however, things like what you are saying with the ratings would actually require you to hear the song you like...go to itunes and rate it...and then at some point update your sonos to pick up your updated "favorites" list. still works...just not all from the palm of your hand.
Userlevel 1
Badge +3
These are the two (best) features of iTunes and the iPod that keep me those platforms.

The ability to rate a song (from ITunes) or from the iPod is phenomenal. When coupled with SmartPlaylist that live-update it's unbeatable. I have one playlist that I NEVER have to touch called Favorites. EVERY song that I rate as 5 stars gets added automatically.

Would love to see support for these on Sonos playlists.
Userlevel 2
Id like to see the ratings displayed.
I have reservations about the controller being able to update the ratings. As much as I'd like that functionality, I wouldnt want to have my music share as writable.
Userlevel 2
why are you using EAC and MediaMonkey. Why not just use one?
Because I have found that EAC gives me the best quality rips and, perhaps more importantly, always reports any problems, rather than silently ignoring errors. (Maybe MM does too, but I came to it after EAC)

For speed, I rip to (and set the initial tags on) my local PC drive using a "local" MM database. Then, I copy the finished FLAC to the NAS and reindex the Sonos. Because my PC drive isn't large enough to mirror the NAS, the odds are that any file I want to amend is no longer on my PC, and since I don't always take the time to rebuild my MM global database whenever I copy new files, that's the reason I need to rescan the NAS before I can start editing.

Note my gripe is not with MM - it's the hassle (to me) of being forced to go outside the Sonos system.
Not to mention the danger (to Sonos) of constantly "encouraging" users to look at alternative audio software.

Even if you could use the Sonos Desktop controller (SDC) to do this...
4) still need to locate the items in SDC

Err, my original post did start... "Say I'm sitting at the Desktop Controller and notice that a track title is mis-spelled.." :)

5) still need to correct misspellings etc
Now if only Sonos could handle this one!

6) still need to update index. I understand what you're saying, a smarter reindex....
Yes, and my point was that the SDC does already know everything to make a smarter reindex possible. The SDC+PC already has access to both NAS files and Sonos index (ok, RO and maybe not directly); already communicates with Sonos boxes to tell it/them to reindex; and should be able to remember which files it has edited!

Even if the re-index isn't handled by the PC, in theory there's no great difference between the commands: "Reindex - but I refuse to tell you what might have changed" and "Reindex - and these are the only ones that I have changed". Indeed, a human would probably find the second task easier. Admittedly the shuffling might be a little trickier for the Sonos, but nothing near as tricky as tasks the boxes are already doing.

Anyway, the (lack of) speed of the UpdateMusicIndex is a minor irritation compared to the "I'll let you see all these spelling mistakes but I won't let you correct them - you must fire up another application"

(Not to mention the "...and I won't let you play them through your PC either - you must fire up another application" 😮 )

I'm not opposed to Sonos writing proprietary data (I actually support it), but keep away from my tags
I didn't mean inventing new proprietary tags for storing current information under different headings. But at the moment /all/ information in my Sonos DB does come exclusively from tags in the .FLAC or .MP3 (except for folder.jpg). And most players should silently ignore any tags that they don't understand?

But I care less about /where/ any extra information might be stored than that a new killer feature might be delayed or not even attempted - "oh, we'd love to do that, but there isn't any /standard/ tag to hold that information"

But that's enough kite-flying for today!
Userlevel 4
Badge +2
I suspect we all have uniquely convoluted mechanisms for managing our music and the mechanisms to rate music. I agree being able to adjust ratings from the controller would be highly valued even if they results weren't reflected back into iTunes. IMO, That's an iTunes problem.

Ratings get most COMPLEX when they are used to create playlists. To simplify I'd propose a simple ratings filter applied to the Queue rather than to playlists. In the same way we toggle repeat, shuffle, on the queue I envision a simple option to apply ratings to the queue in a similar manner. ALL the tracks residing in the queue would be filtered out of the play mix when they come up based on the filter active at the time. So no matter what means we use to get material into the queue, this filter lets us dynamically thin up/down the items that actually play.

Ideally such a filter would supports the usual, play 1 star or greater, etc. but also the ability to conjunctively play the unrated songs as well.
Userlevel 1
why are you using EAC and MediaMonkey. Why not just use one? That would eliminate many of your steps, time etc.

4) Locate the item in my Tag Editor (Not always as straight-forward as this might sound!)

5) Correct the mis-spelling / Star Rating / whatever

6) Back to the Desktop Controller: Music, UpdateMusicIndex...

7) And Wait... for another several m..i..n..u..t..e..s
Even if you could use the Sonos Desktop controller (SDC) to do this, here is the scenario
4) still need to locate the items in SDC
5) still need to correct misspellings etc
6) still need to update index. I understand what you're saying, a smarter reindex. But there are issues. The files that you would be editing in SDC do not reside on the ZPs, they are just files on your PC/NAS. The Sonos index however is *not* on your PC, it's within all the ZPs. So when you do a reindex, it's not your desktop doing any work, it's the ZPs that are rescanning. I accept that it's possible for the ZPs to somehow add one file at a time if directly told which files to add. But the ZP is not aware of SDC edits, and the SDC is not aware of the ZP index (I know the SDC reads the index real time but it does not maintain the index). I'm just trying to explain that it's not as easy as it first appears.

So I would say that the only saving might be with the reindex.

However I *do* agree that Sonos should be able to write data (maybe in a sidecar file) so that it can record things like last played, most played, etc. The tags however must use standard tags, not proprietary Sonos info.

At the moment, the Sonos system is restricted to only those tags supported by third-party tagging programs. No
matter how much we users may want a feature, nor how much Sonos would like to provide it, if it requires a new type of tag then it simply can't happen until/unless some third-party decides to implement it - and implement it to suit Sonos's precise requirements, regardless of how unimportant it may be to their own program
Not correct, Sonos supports the 'standard' tags. This is not limited to third party apps support. So Sonos can only support those tags that are supported by the tags (I know that is a circular reference). These are usually published by some non-profit for open source, or Company for proprietary. But if they're proprietary, Sonos can't change the codec. More importantly, I use my digital music on Sonos, in my car, portable etc etc. Sonos *must* obide by standard tags and not use non-std tags for that reason.

Most of the features you are referring to are not tags (artist, album etc). I like the Sonos sidecar file approach. Sonos can do it's weird and wonderful thing, and have all these settings, personalization, workflow improvements etc that you're asking for in these files and my digital music files are preserved *and* useable on other equipment. These sidecar files are also easily backed up because they are so small. Other options are to use ini files (or xml) or write the Sonos database to disk (like a sqlite db) that can also be backed up, edited etc. The point is, this data *cannot* go into the source files for many reasons. Even apps like MediaMonkey, iTunes, WMP etc use this approach. The std tags are written into the files, the 'other' data is in their database.

I'm not opposed to Sonos writing proprietary data (I actually support it), but keep away from my tags - I'm not an exclusive Sonos user and do not want to be locked into Sonos for life. What if something better comes along...

db
Userlevel 2
That's a tough one because a fundamental guiding principle is never write on the user's file system.
While that is very safe and sensible (especially from the POV of Sonos's Legal Advisors!) IMO the absence of
editing facilities imposes unnecessary inconvenience on the Sonos user and limits the potential of the Sonos
system.

a) User Inconvenience...

Say I'm sitting at the Desktop Controller and notice that a track title is mis-spelled or I want to rename/combine
an artist who appears in several different guises or, as several others have asked, add a "Star Rating", or...

At the moment I must...

1) Fire up a separate Tag Editor - I use EAC for ripping and Media Monkey for tagging but because my PC doesn't
have enough space to hold all the music that's on my NAS, my "global" MediaMonkey DB will probably be out-of-date.

2) MediaMonkey: File, Add/Rescan my NAS library to bring my global DB up-to-date.

3) Wait for several m..i..n..u..t..e..s **

4) Locate the item in my Tag Editor (Not always as straight-forward as this might sound!)

5) Correct the mis-spelling / Star Rating / whatever

6) Back to the Desktop Controller: Music, UpdateMusicIndex...

7) And Wait... for another several m..i..n..u..t..e..s

If it's still not quite right, I might be able to avoid steps 1+2+3 before my next batch of edits, but I must still
wait for the UpdateMusicIndex scan to complete each and every time. Operations which only take a few seconds for a
reasonable number of tracks on a PC's local disk can take orders of magnitude longer for thousands of tracks stored
out on a LAN.

But take a step back: I don't actually /want/ to keep this track+artist information in any /separate/ database. In
general, I only want to enjoy the music on my NAS through the "reassuringly-expensive" Sonos system that I bought.

Now, if the Desktop Controller*** (with all appropriate "Don't blame me if I destroy your music" warnings) could do
the editing directly (on both the tracks AND the internal Sonos DB), it should be able to avoid steps
1+2+3+4+6+7**** and so be much more convenient and save this Sonos User precious leisure time.

The larger the music collection, the more likely that customers will seek out a Sonos solution but the more likely
that they will want to correct something and/or reclassify their collection.


b) Limiting Sonos potential...

At the moment, the Sonos system is restricted to only those tags supported by third-party tagging programs. No
matter how much we users may want a feature, nor how much Sonos would like to provide it, if it requires a new type of tag then it simply can't happen until/unless some third-party decides to implement it - and implement it to suit Sonos's precise requirements, regardless of how unimportant it may be to their own program.

Sonos, Be Brave! Don't hold yourselves back! After all, "Embrace and Extend" is a proven route to World Dominance!


** Yes, there are ways I can marginally speed up this process but each requires more user effort and hence inconvenience.

*** Or a separate Sonos tag-editing application

**** Because it should know exactly which artists/albums/tracks have been modified, so it should not need to perform a /full/ music scan.
Userlevel 2
I agree - this would be a great feature, I use an intelligent playlist within iTunes based on the ratings I assign to songs - it would be excellent to be able to assign ratings from the controller:) 🙂
Userlevel 2
I would very much like to see 5-star rating in the SONOS software. Rating would also allow another cool feature to be implemented into the software - automatic playlists. For example, a playlist which includes all the songs rated 3 stars or better etc... If one could also include rules concerning the genre one would have a hell of a system! 🙂