Question

iPlayer


Is there a board where we can add requests for upgrades / amendments. I'd like to see one with lots of votes to lobby for a change of policy on iPlayer. We'd like to play it on Sonos

26 replies

Which Sonos policy on iPlayer do you wish to change? The one that offers an open and free API to any service provider that wants to take advantage of it?
Or the one that offers the Sonos Direct Control API for any service that wishes to control Sonos from within the service's own app?

Bottom line; Sonos has expressed the wish to work with any service, it takes the service to initiate, because Sonos cannot access their material unilaterally. So far, it appears the BBC has not expressed any interest in doing so.
Or to put it another way, if there is such a board where you can lobby you need to try http://www.bbc.co.uk. Although personally I think it would be hard to justify this use of licence-fee payers' money.
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If you have a sonos product with a line-in, plug a google chromecast audio in for £15 and you will have BBC iplayer radio on sonos now.
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Sonos could provide an iPlayer plugin if they wanted, just as 3rd parties have written iPlayer plugins for Squeezebox. However, they refuse to do it, claiming it's not their job.
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However, TuneIn Radio does give you a lot of iPlayer features.
thomashenry wrote:

Sonos could provide an iPlayer plugin if they wanted, just as 3rd parties have written iPlayer plugins for Squeezebox. However, they refuse to do it, claiming it's not their job.



Now, now Thomas, I have quoted to you the passages in the BBC TOS that state why Sonos cannot do this unilaterally. Just because some time has elapsed and you think you can sneak on back in and start babbling about the Squeezebox plugin again doesn't make those terms of service statements go away.
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I simply don't see BBC iPlayer ever coming to Sonos. Clearly it is up to the BBC to make that happen and it simply wouldn't fit in with their remit. And much as I would like it as a license fee payer I'd rather they carried on spending that money on the other things they do brilliantly.
From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/business.shtml#5

2. General prohibition of use and intellectual property rights

2.1 Unless otherwise expressly stated in the Additional Terms of a particular BBC Online Service:

2.1.1 you may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, distribute, lend, hire, sub-license, rent, perform, make a derivative work from, make available to the public, adapt, alter, edit, re-position, frame, rebrand, change or otherwise use in any way any BBC Online Services and/or BBC Content in whole or in part on your product or service or elsewhere or permit or assist any third party to do the same except to the extent permitted at law ("Restricted Acts");

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jgatie wrote:

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/business.shtml#5

2. General prohibition of use and intellectual property rights

2.1 Unless otherwise expressly stated in the Additional Terms of a particular BBC Online Service:

2.1.1 you may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, distribute, lend, hire, sub-license, rent, perform, make a derivative work from, make available to the public, adapt, alter, edit, re-position, frame, rebrand, change or otherwise use in any way any BBC Online Services and/or BBC Content in whole or in part on your product or service or elsewhere or permit or assist any third party to do the same except to the extent permitted at law ("Restricted Acts");



Nothing in there would prevent a Sonos plugin from being written.
thomashenry wrote:



Nothing in there would prevent a Sonos plugin from being written.



Bull. You claim Sonos can unilaterally support BBC steaming in their app. That is 100% false, Sonos needs permission from the BBC to access their streams via their interface, So stop your nonsense.

And by the way, there are no "plugins" on Sonos. So there can't be a "plugin" at all, no matter what the relationship between Sonos and the BBC. Big difference between Sonos and Squeezebox, besides the fact Sonos hardware is actually sold in stores.
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jgatie wrote:

thomashenry wrote:



Nothing in there would prevent a Sonos plugin from being written.



Bull. You claim Sonos can unilaterally support BBC steaming in their app. That is 100% false, Sonos needs permission from the BBC to access their streams via their interface, So stop your nonsense.

And by the way, there are no "plugins" on Sonos. So there can't be a "plugin" at all, no matter what the relationship between Sonos and the BBC. Big difference between Sonos and Squeezebox, besides the fact Sonos hardware is actually sold in stores.



That's just not true. The streams are available through public http APIs.... such as... your internet browser! Are the BBC sueing Google for allowing people to access iPlayer through chrome? Are the suing Mozilla? Microsoft? Apple? Or any other browser vendor? A 'plugin' (or add-on, or whatever the correct term for Sonos plugins is) would simply be another way of accessing what's publicly available through the web. Sonos would not be distributing, broadcasting, or anything like that.
thomashenry wrote:


That's just not true. The streams are available through public http APIs.... such as... your internet browser! Are the BBC sueing Google for allowing people to access iPlayer through chrome? Are the suing Mozilla? Microsoft? Apple? Or any other browser vendor? A 'plugin' (or add-on, or whatever the correct term for Sonos plugins is) would simply be another way of accessing what's publicly available through the web. Sonos would not be distributing, broadcasting, or anything like that.



And without the permission of the BBC to "make available to the public . . . in whole or in part on your product or service", Sonos can be sued by the BBC for unlawful access of copyrighted material. You are wrong on this. Browser access permission is implicit because the BBC creates a browser presence for that purpose. In doing so, they have 100% control over the UI, the look, the ads displayed, the content available, etc. That's quite different from a third party creating an interface without the permission of the BBC. You are talking apples and oranges.

You really are out of your league here. Sonos themselves stated in no uncertain terms that supporting BBC iPlayer streaming in the Sonos app requires effort from both the BBC and Sonos:

https://en.community.sonos.com/music-services-and-sources-228994/bbc-radio-6738426/index6.html

Ryan S wrote:


On the topic at hand, there's no official news we can share about adding iPlayer support to Sonos right now. I've made sure to pass on all the feedback here to the team, but as others have said, whenever we build an integration with a music service it's a partnership. Neither side does all the work, and neither side can do all the work. We have the music service api available for anyone to start using to develop their service for Sonos, but once that's started we work together to add the service to Sonos.



Right there from the company spokesperson - "neither side can do all the work."

So just stop. The facts are not on your side. Unless you wish to call Ryan S from Sonos a liar?
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Hi everyone, let's all take a break and relax. I just went through and deleted some posts. We don't need to get out of hand here.

@paulfox, I'll make sure to add your request for iPlayer to the team for you.
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But what would be nice, at least, would be to be able to play the FLAC streams for this year's Proms.
BrianJ wrote:

But what would be nice, at least, would be to be able to play the FLAC streams for this year's Proms.



Careful the internet lawyers gonna jump on this case. 2 years for HLS, your request is only a year old so maybe they add it next year or never seems more likely IMO.
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jgatie wrote:

thomashenry wrote:


That's just not true. The streams are available through public http APIs.... such as... your internet browser! Are the BBC sueing Google for allowing people to access iPlayer through chrome? Are the suing Mozilla? Microsoft? Apple? Or any other browser vendor? A 'plugin' (or add-on, or whatever the correct term for Sonos plugins is) would simply be another way of accessing what's publicly available through the web. Sonos would not be distributing, broadcasting, or anything like that.



And without the permission of the BBC to "make available to the public . . . in whole or in part on your product or service", Sonos can be sued by the BBC for unlawful access of copyrighted material. You are wrong on this. Browser access permission is implicit because the BBC creates a browser presence for that purpose. In doing so, they have 100% control over the UI, the look, the ads displayed, the content available, etc. That's quite different from a third party creating an interface without the permission of the BBC. You are talking apples and oranges.

You really are out of your league here. Sonos themselves stated in no uncertain terms that supporting BBC iPlayer streaming in the Sonos app requires effort from both the BBC and Sonos:

https://en.community.sonos.com/music-services-and-sources-228994/bbc-radio-6738426/index6.html

Ryan S wrote:


On the topic at hand, there's no official news we can share about adding iPlayer support to Sonos right now. I've made sure to pass on all the feedback here to the team, but as others have said, whenever we build an integration with a music service it's a partnership. Neither side does all the work, and neither side can do all the work. We have the music service api available for anyone to start using to develop their service for Sonos, but once that's started we work together to add the service to Sonos.



Right there from the company spokesperson - "neither side can do all the work."

So just stop. The facts are not on your side. Unless you wish to call Ryan S from Sonos a liar?



These are not 'facts', this is simply a company representative towing the company line. He's not lying, he's simply repeating what he's been told to repeat. I've been in industry long enough to know that official company statements on things like this are by no means always the truth. You must be incredibly naive to believe otherwise.

As for being out of my league - I'm not going to start waving my dick around by listing my credentials, but let's just say I've been in this industry a long time. I'm not talking apples and oranges, believe me.
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thomashenry wrote:

These are not 'facts', this is simply a company representative towing the company line. He's not lying, he's simply repeating what he's been told to repeat. I've been in industry long enough to know that official company statements on things like this are by no means always the truth. You must be incredibly naive to believe otherwise.



Ouch, that hurts a little, man. I'm more of a really informed technician who's here to help out and shed some light on how Sonos works. There's only so much I can say about what's coming for the future, and I know that means sometimes I have to be a little vague, but I'm not hiding anything about the way we develop music partnerships.

Adding music services to Sonos is a complicated deal where we engage fully with the music service teams. Both sides write code, test, and design an interface that passes muster by all the necessary teams. There's no work that's done in a vacuum or without input from both sides. It's not just development teams working together either, we work with marketing, legal, sales, and all the other teams that might need to be involved.

When we work with a service to bring native support to Sonos, we're careful to make sure the entire experience on Sonos is as good as possible, and just hacking together a "solution" using some public APIs isn't going to do that. We build a lasting relationship that has the room to grow.

We'd love to add the sort of support we have with Spotify to other music services, an in app and in Sonos design that's fun to use no matter the app you want to pick. That's the dream.

I don't have any details we can share on iPlayer today, but if there's every anything to bring up we'll make sure to share it with the world.
Sigh. I give up. I guess I'll just start lobbying for the ignore feature. Some people arent worth it.
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Lots of sighs this week jgatie, you need a holiday matey :cool:
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Ryan S wrote:

thomashenry wrote:

These are not 'facts', this is simply a company representative towing the company line. He's not lying, he's simply repeating what he's been told to repeat. I've been in industry long enough to know that official company statements on things like this are by no means always the truth. You must be incredibly naive to believe otherwise.



Ouch, that hurts a little, man. I'm more of a really informed technician who's here to help out and shed some light on how Sonos works. There's only so much I can say about what's coming for the future, and I know that means sometimes I have to be a little vague, but I'm not hiding anything about the way we develop music partnerships.

Adding music services to Sonos is a complicated deal where we engage fully with the music service teams. Both sides write code, test, and design an interface that passes muster by all the necessary teams. There's no work that's done in a vacuum or without input from both sides. It's not just development teams working together either, we work with marketing, legal, sales, and all the other teams that might need to be involved.

When we work with a service to bring native support to Sonos, we're careful to make sure the entire experience on Sonos is as good as possible, and just hacking together a "solution" using some public APIs isn't going to do that. We build a lasting relationship that has the room to grow.

We'd love to add the sort of support we have with Spotify to other music services, an in app and in Sonos design that's fun to use no matter the app you want to pick. That's the dream.

I don't have any details we can share on iPlayer today, but if there's every anything to bring up we'll make sure to share it with the world.




Hi Ryan, I didn't mean to question your knowledge or technical ability, and I apologise if it came across that way. Fact is that you are a representative of Sonos, and so you have a responsibility to stick to the official line on things, I don't blame you for that.

It's apparently a policy of Sonos to not provide music services unilaterally, but to only provide them if the 3rd party music service does some of the work. In most cases this is a business decision, not a technical one. Take Spotify for example - they provide an API (formerly libspotify, now a new one) for anyone to freely write their own client. Sonos could do this 100% by themselves if they wanted to (just as several people have done for Squeezebox).

The same is true for an iPlayer plugin. There is a discussion about rights, and whether or not Sonos are even allowed to do it. Let's put that to one side for a minute - even if Sonos need did need permission, they could get it if they wanted. Sonos' position is that it is incumbent on the BBC to do the work, or at least some of it. Again, this is a business decision, not a technical one. Did the BBC write the iPlayer software on every Smart TV out there? Did they write the Squeezebox one? No, of course not. So it's frustrating when Sonos fall back on this excuse to explain the lack of what is considered a must-have feature by most people in the UK. "It's not us, it's them" seems to have convinced some people, but not me.

I think one reason Sonos don't really care about iPlayer is that buyers just assume it will work, and so sales are not lost. I for one didn't even consider the possibility that there would be no iPlayer before acquiring my Sonos.
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thomashenry wrote:

Ryan S wrote:

thomashenry wrote:

These are not 'facts', this is simply a company representative towing the company line. He's not lying, he's simply repeating what he's been told to repeat. I've been in industry long enough to know that official company statements on things like this are by no means always the truth. You must be incredibly naive to believe otherwise.



Ouch, that hurts a little, man. I'm more of a really informed technician who's here to help out and shed some light on how Sonos works. There's only so much I can say about what's coming for the future, and I know that means sometimes I have to be a little vague, but I'm not hiding anything about the way we develop music partnerships.

Adding music services to Sonos is a complicated deal where we engage fully with the music service teams. Both sides write code, test, and design an interface that passes muster by all the necessary teams. There's no work that's done in a vacuum or without input from both sides. It's not just development teams working together either, we work with marketing, legal, sales, and all the other teams that might need to be involved.

When we work with a service to bring native support to Sonos, we're careful to make sure the entire experience on Sonos is as good as possible, and just hacking together a "solution" using some public APIs isn't going to do that. We build a lasting relationship that has the room to grow.

We'd love to add the sort of support we have with Spotify to other music services, an in app and in Sonos design that's fun to use no matter the app you want to pick. That's the dream.

I don't have any details we can share on iPlayer today, but if there's every anything to bring up we'll make sure to share it with the world.




Hi Ryan, I didn't mean to question your knowledge or technical ability, and I apologise if it came across that way. Fact is that you are a representative of Sonos, and so you have a responsibility to stick to the official line on things, I don't blame you for that.

It's apparently a policy of Sonos to not provide music services unilaterally, but to only provide them if the 3rd party music service does some of the work. In most cases this is a business decision, not a technical one. Take Spotify for example - they provide an API (formerly libspotify, now a new one) for anyone to freely write their own client. Sonos could do this 100% by themselves if they wanted to (just as several people have done for Squeezebox).

The same is true for an iPlayer plugin. There is a discussion about rights, and whether or not Sonos are even allowed to do it. Let's put that to one side for a minute - even if Sonos need did need permission, they could get it if they wanted. Sonos' position is that it is incumbent on the BBC to do the work, or at least some of it. Again, this is a business decision, not a technical one. Did the BBC write the iPlayer software on every Smart TV out there? Did they write the Squeezebox one? No, of course not. So it's frustrating when Sonos fall back on this excuse to explain the lack of what is considered a must-have feature by most people in the UK. "It's not us, it's them" seems to have convinced some people, but not me.

I think one reason Sonos don't really care about iPlayer is that buyers just assume it will work, and so sales are not lost. I for one didn't even consider the possibility that there would be no iPlayer before acquiring my Sonos.



Have you lobbied the BBC to make sure they are aware of this interest?

I'm not entirely sure how you can make the assumption that customers would assume the BBC iPlayer would "just work" not least because Sonos is an American company selling it's products all over the world. The BBC iPlayer may well be a big deal in the UK but it isn't in Malaysia, Australia, Japan, France, Italy, Canada, Mexico................

I get that you are keen for this to be available within Sonos but I don't understand why you keep insisting even Sonos are wrong. You are literally flogging a dead horse.

And by the there are many people on these boards who would love an iPlayer music service, myself included, but we realise how the process works and trying to insist square is round is not going to help.
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Stuart_W wrote:


Have you lobbied the BBC to make sure they are aware of this interest?

I'm not entirely sure how you can make the assumption that customers would assume the BBC iPlayer would "just work" not least because Sonos is an American company selling it's products all over the world. The BBC iPlayer may well be a big deal in the UK but it isn't in Malaysia, Australia, Japan, France, Italy, Canada, Mexico................

I get that you are keen for this to be available within Sonos but I don't understand why you keep insisting even Sonos are wrong. You are literally flogging a dead horse.

And by the there are many people on these boards who would love an iPlayer music service, myself included, but we realise how the process works and trying to insist square is round is not going to help.



It's not their job! It's Sonos' job, regardless of what Sonos say.

I think consumers in the UK buying a product like this will take it for granted that iPlayer will work. I might be wrong, but I certainly did. It's totally ubiquitous.
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thomashenry wrote:

Stuart_W wrote:


Have you lobbied the BBC to make sure they are aware of this interest?

I'm not entirely sure how you can make the assumption that customers would assume the BBC iPlayer would "just work" not least because Sonos is an American company selling it's products all over the world. The BBC iPlayer may well be a big deal in the UK but it isn't in Malaysia, Australia, Japan, France, Italy, Canada, Mexico................

I get that you are keen for this to be available within Sonos but I don't understand why you keep insisting even Sonos are wrong. You are literally flogging a dead horse.

And by the there are many people on these boards who would love an iPlayer music service, myself included, but we realise how the process works and trying to insist square is round is not going to help.



It's not their job! It's Sonos' job, regardless of what Sonos say.

I think consumers in the UK buying a product like this will take it for granted that iPlayer will work. I might be wrong, but I certainly did. It's totally ubiquitous.



Have you lobbied the BBC yet?
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Stuart_W wrote:

thomashenry wrote:

Stuart_W wrote:


Have you lobbied the BBC to make sure they are aware of this interest?

I'm not entirely sure how you can make the assumption that customers would assume the BBC iPlayer would "just work" not least because Sonos is an American company selling it's products all over the world. The BBC iPlayer may well be a big deal in the UK but it isn't in Malaysia, Australia, Japan, France, Italy, Canada, Mexico................

I get that you are keen for this to be available within Sonos but I don't understand why you keep insisting even Sonos are wrong. You are literally flogging a dead horse.

And by the there are many people on these boards who would love an iPlayer music service, myself included, but we realise how the process works and trying to insist square is round is not going to help.



It's not their job! It's Sonos' job, regardless of what Sonos say.

I think consumers in the UK buying a product like this will take it for granted that iPlayer will work. I might be wrong, but I certainly did. It's totally ubiquitous.



Have you lobbied the BBC yet?



It's not their job.

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