Question

future of the 65k limit


I'm really impressed by the speakers and basically the idea of the system. But what's really frustrating is the song-limit of almost 65k...

Will (and when?) this be corrected somehow? This is the only (but heavy) obstacle for me to buy a sonos solution for almost every room in my house (by the way how many speakers can be connected AND is it working across 4 floors?). Lets assume this barriere is been gone some day - will the current speakers work in that "new" environment or does it means, that I need all new products? What products do I have to change?

I really cannot understand why sonos is so bullish in this point - hopefully I get a positive answer (cause exept this issue I like it very much!)

Thanks for any (positive) information!

This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

155 replies

uhm ok.
Not melodramatic at all, nor calling foul or betrayal. It's a fact. Sonos is no longer working on the local library functionality, the core component that got them on the map. It's been stated here several times by Sonos reps. Remember their 'all the music in the world' mantra before streaming services were even introduced? Became untrue quickly and dropped even quicker. But as I wrote... I'm fine with that, and I would replace all my gear with more advanced pieces should the native library storage be able to be doubled or even tripled.
Userlevel 5
Badge +3
They've abandoned their core base that they founded their company on.

That's a bit melodramatic, isn't it?

Sonos hasn't taken anything away from you at all. What they've done is focus their new development on the functionality most used by their current customers.You can choose to take offense to that, but it's the only way for a smart company to stay in business.

Who knows? They very well might still deliver voice control support for local libraries. After all, this release you're calling a betrayal is a beta.
Exactly. They've abandoned their core base that they founded their company on. But yes... I would consider replacing all seven of my players should they at least double their capacity. I mainly use mine for my music collection, and occasionally listen to Sirius, but in my RV, I'm mostly limited to my local library because Internet streaming is a nightmare.
As I've said... if they can upgrade the players and I have to replace them to get the increased capacity, I'm in.
But how will your other players deal with this upgrade? The architecture needs all players to carry indexed playlists in their memories. Will you replace all?
IMO, with the focus on streaming services that will get a further push via voice control not being available to initiate NAS music play, this development has become even more remote now. And Sonos will have their hands full dealing with voice control fixes, improvements and extensions to look at this for a small part of a user segment that is itself getting smaller as a percentage of its user base.
As I've said... if they can upgrade the players and I have to replace them to get the increased capacity, I'm in.
There are many of us who might agree with you, if that change didn't make all of our equipment no longer valid.
Badge +1
I note that this topic started 3 years back. I love my Sonos system and look forward to the voice activated...Alexa...etc speakers/software coming to Australia soon I hope. However, I really believe that my collection will be permanently capped at 65k which is a real shame. If they couldn't or didn't want to solve this in 3 years then I guess it ain't gonna happen. My tuppence worth.
I've always imagined it really wasn't a software issue at all, but a available memory in the speakers that caused that restriction. But that's just my imagination, I've got nothing to back that up.

It is.

The "ZoneIndexer" idea was a proposed way to support larger local libraries and, perhaps, to support more advanced indexing options without having to render older units incompatible (or to deal with retrofitting then in any way).

The UPnP standard that Sonos is based on supports a separate "Server" (which is what UPnP calls the Media Indexing function).

In fact the way Sonos does it could actually be considered to be unusual implementation of the standard, which seems to be written around the view that the media player and media indexing functions are on separate devices, rather than combined into a single device as with Sonos.

But a lot of this discussion is probably moot, as Sonos doesn't seem to be interested in expanding the system capabilities in this way.

Cheers,

Keith
It would be interesting (hmmm, now I need to go home and do some poking around) to be able to see how much actual memory is in each speaker. How many of my 18 to 20 devices would I need to replace, if they were to go that route? I'm relatively new to the ecosystem, so probably not many, but I can imagine the ugliness on these boards if they did take this route. I'd even suggest that if it was something that they were to decide to do, they should create a new "bridge" or similar device that could store the data for all speakers (gah, the programming changes involved in this idea are increasingly bad) and keep the old ones usable....

Just not a pretty picture, if they want to keep away from ugliness (I spend $50 on these speakers 10 years ago, and they don't work!). Most people don't comprehend that these really are individual computers with speakers attached to them, and there will be updates and changes along the line. Not something they'd have dealt with on old style "dumb" speakers.
That's exactly it, Air. The memory int he speakers is lacking. Newer speakers could have greater memory, but then that leaves the older units out of the equation. I'm even willing to replace my older units with ones with more memory if they do go that route.
I've always imagined it really wasn't a software issue at all, but a available memory in the speakers that caused that restriction. But that's just my imagination, I've got nothing to back that up.

But it makes sense to me in light of their "make all old things still work" policy, so the earliest device's memory footprint is the maximum they have to allow the software to work with. So whatever RAM there is in the earliest speaker is it.
You're right, Majik... having a device that holds the index to 'all the music on earth' (remember that?) and then commands the other units to play them on demand is seemingly simple to me, but may be simplified by my understanding. Sounds like a software adjustment to me. But, again, I could be simplifying it.

The concept is simple. The implementation may not be. And even then, a good starting point is to consider that the coding probably represents maybe 1/20th of the total effort required to implement any feature (in some cases the coding can be an even smaller fraction).

And even if the effort is relatively low, it has to be resourced and developments prioritised and fit into development windows. Even if the total effort for a change is only a few days, it has the power to push other, more mainstream developments out by multiple months if it is prioritised over them.

I suspect you may understand this, but the history of this forum shows that many don't and it's always good to put words like "easy" and "simple" into context.

Cheers,

Keith
I loved the ZoneIndexer idea. I gladly would have purchased two. I like the Plex and Subsonic ideas, but both require internet access, which isn't always an option for me on the road. So I live with the 65K limit. You're right, Majik... having a device that holds the index to 'all the music on earth' (remember that?) and then commands the other units to play them on demand is seemingly simple to me, but may be simplified by my understanding. Sounds like a software adjustment to me. But, again, I could be simplifying it.

Ultimately though, as you stated, with the move away from local based music collections, I've learned to (begrudgingly) live with the limit without hope for salvation from Sonos. But, on the bright side, when I first purchased, the limit was 32K, so they at least doubled it before abandoning it.
I originated the concept (but not the name) of the ZoneIndexer. I did so based on my knowledge of the system at the time. There may be reasons why the architecture doesn't support it, but I don't see what those are.

The Sonos units combine a player (or "renderer" in UPnP parlance) and an indexer (aka UPnP "server"). The controller (aka UPnP "Control point") addresses the "server" part of the player to build the UI and to get the URI of the track to be played, and then it instructs the "renderer" to play it.

Whilst these functions reside on the same hardware units and are replicated to every unit, I see no reason why this has to always be the case if there is a known standalone indexer ("server") on the network.

OTOH, the world has been moving away from local music collections towards streaming services for some time, and this is Sonos's stated focus. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if they changed this view, although I suspect if they did release a "ZoneIndexer", it wouldn't sell that well these days (unless it did something else as well).

Personally I think the right approach these days is the service based approach as epitomised by Plex. This seems to offer so much promise. It's a shame the Plex implementation is so half-baked.

Cheers,

Keith
Userlevel 3
Badge +2
Looks like the aggressive Rubberduck sank without trace!
It works perfectly.

Just tried it again. The Sonos version still only sorts by artist or by album, so it's useless for anyone with a wider taste in music. Suggest that you get your facts right before posting such aggressive drivel in here.
Userlevel 3
Badge +2
[quote=rubberduck][quote=rubberduck]
Slow loading of tracks, rubbish, mine Ian much faster with plex? Do you know how to setup media?


I'll rubbish your rubbish because your assumption is that everyone is working under the same circumstances. Even Plex's own forums have people who are having problems with the speed of media updating.

I'm sure you set it up fine first time- lucky you. But I assure you that is not everyone's experience.

Do I know how to set up media? Do you know what sort of media I wanted Plex to work on?

I think not.
Userlevel 3
Badge +2
That's if you can make Plex work. The Somos software barely supported by the people that make it, they take no interest in their own forums, and loads of people have had issues in getting it to operate. Even when I did, the appallingly slow loading of tracks was enough to make me ditch it.

I find that Subsonic meets my needs far better and has worked perfectly well since I installed it- even if it did require me to make significant changes to the directory structure of my music.


Rubbish, total rubbish. When you can make it work? It works flawlessly for me, on iPhone, Xbox, Apple TV, roku, sonos. Need to do better. Subsonic, don't make me laugh


Dear Rubberduck,

Each to his own, but plenty of people have had problems with Plex and making it work with Sonos.
I'm sure it does work for you, but I have spent enough time on it. I'm not a computer novice and your arrogant comments that perhaps I don't know what I am doing are pathetic.

You have no knowledge of why I want to use Subsonic for, so if you expect people to respect your views you might want to enquire I want Plex or Subsonic to work.

What I have works for me, so I'd kindly request that you mind your own business.

RUBBISH.

I have used plex for over three years even before investing in sonos.

It works perfectly.


We're talking about the Sonos implementation of Plex, which you can't have used for three years, as it hasn't been available for that long. AFAICS, Plex works OK from a browser, but that's not how Sonos users want to access it.
Userlevel 4
Badge +1
That's if you can make Plex work. The Somos software barely supported by the people that make it, they take no interest in their own forums, and loads of people have had issues in getting it to operate. Even when I did, the appallingly slow loading of tracks was enough to make me ditch it.

I find that Subsonic meets my needs far better and has worked perfectly well since I installed it- even if it did require me to make significant changes to the directory structure of my music.


Rubbish, total rubbish. When you can make it work? It works flawlessly for me, on iPhone, Xbox, Apple TV, roku, sonos. Need to do better. Subsonic, don't make me laugh


Slow loading of tracks, rubbish, mine Ian much faster with plex? Do you know how to setup media?
Userlevel 4
Badge +1
That's if you can make Plex work. The Somos software barely supported by the people that make it, they take no interest in their own forums, and loads of people have had issues in getting it to operate. Even when I did, the appallingly slow loading of tracks was enough to make me ditch it.

I find that Subsonic meets my needs far better and has worked perfectly well since I installed it- even if it did require me to make significant changes to the directory structure of my music.


Rubbish, total rubbish. When you can make it work? It works flawlessly for me, on iPhone, Xbox, Apple TV, roku, sonos. Need to do better. Subsonic, don't make me laugh
Userlevel 4
Badge +1
That's if you can make Plex work. The Somos software barely supported by the people that make it, they take no interest in their own forums, and loads of people have had issues in getting it to operate. Even when I did, the appallingly slow loading of tracks was enough to make me ditch it.

I find that Subsonic meets my needs far better and has worked perfectly well since I installed it- even if it did require me to make significant changes to the directory structure of my music.
Userlevel 4
Badge +1
That's if you can make Plex work. The Somos software barely supported by the people that make it, they take no interest in their own forums, and loads of people have had issues in getting it to operate. Even when I did, the appallingly slow loading of tracks was enough to make me ditch it.

Same here. It recently offered an update and now doesn't work at all. It really isn't a reliable solution for Sonos users, and promoting it as such takes Sonos off of the hook.

I find that Subsonic meets my needs far better and has worked perfectly well since I installed it- even if it did require me to make significant changes to the directory structure of my music.

Off to have a look :D


RUBBISH.

I have used plex for over three years even before investing in sonos.

It works perfectly.

You couldn't have set it up properly and there are multiple sources how to.

Suggestig subsonic as an alternative to plex Ian laughable - maybe you have an invested interest, anyone who does some research will see plex is extremely stable, supported and integrated. Up to you guys, plex is perfect and has been for over three years for me.
Userlevel 4
Badge +1
That's if you can make Plex work. The Somos software barely supported by the people that make it, they take no interest in their own forums, and loads of people have had issues in getting it to operate. Even when I did, the appallingly slow loading of tracks was enough to make me ditch it.

Same here. It recently offered an update and now doesn't work at all. It really isn't a reliable solution for Sonos users, and promoting it as such takes Sonos off of the hook.

I find that Subsonic meets my needs far better and has worked perfectly well since I installed it- even if it did require me to make significant changes to the directory structure of my music.

Off to have a look :D