WARNING: Beam does not support Dolby Digital Plus, That is a BIG deal

  • 9 November 2018
  • 81 replies
  • 52388 views


Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

81 replies

I just want to add I never ever expected my Sonos Beam to support any form of Dolby Atmos, when I purchased it 18 months, or so, ago, whether that be the DD+ (lossy) version of Atmos, or the TrueHD (lossless) version.

In a similar/identical way, I never expected the Beam to support other codecs either, like DTS, for example. It was certainly never in the spec. nor was it in the Beam's literature.

So I’m struggling to understand what this thread is really all about?

The majority of TV's with DD+ support, also support DD 5.1 and the majority of Netflix/Amazon/Apple streaming Movie Apps available around the time of the Beams launch date were DD 5.1. In fact a majority of the movies on those platforms are still DD 5.1, albeit the Atmos (DD+) titles are now beginning to creep more and more onto those platforms, at an additional cost.

Assuming the HDMI-ARC port on the Beam is 2.0 (I don’t know if it is) then there’s certainly a chance of a software/firmware upgrade which, one day, might allow the Beam to support Atmos DD+, but there’s no way it can ever support Atmos TrueHD, unless the HDMI Port is version 2.1 eARC capable.

At this moment in time though, I’m happy with the fact thd Beam supports DD 5.1, as that is the reason I purchased it. It is doing what it was designed to do.

Note also, that aswell as upgrading to the “Netflix (more expensive) UltraHD” service to get access to DD+ movies, the Netflix App that plays them too has to support DD+ and some TV's, like LG, (just as an example), prior to 2017 may support the DD+ codec, but their actual built-in Netflix and Amazon Apps don’t .. so in some cases users 'may' wish to upgrade their TV’s too, particularly if the hardware ports will not pass-thru the DD+ audio format.

At the moment Atmos DD+ is only just coming into play with the streaming Movie services and so I don’t see the point in criticising an 18 month old Sonos Beam for not supporting it, particularly as it was never ever part of its original specification.
Userlevel 7
Badge +17
DD+ can’t be transported over optical. You are forcing your TV to transcode DD+ to DD.

I too have had problems with my Sonos Beam and surround. No idea if this was related to DD+ or not, but I had to solve it in different ways for my PS4 an my Mede8er.

I wrote about it here: https://en.community.sonos.com/home-theater-228993/solving-lack-of-dd-support-in-soundbar-6820758?postid=16313027
Userlevel 7
Badge +23
Netflix offers pretty much everything in DD 5.1. If you aren't getting it then you need to fix your source device, or reconfigure it. I use a TiVo BOLT, an Apple TV and an Xbox, all connected via HDMI to my Samsung TV. From my TV I run optical to my Playbar. I have two TV setups like this (the other is an LG TV and a TiVo mini, setup is the same).

I used to have to use an EDID faker on my older Samsung TV, and I had to mess with the service menus on the LG to get them to emit DD 5.1 over optical. In neither case was the problem anything to do with Sonos, it was getting the TVs to behave.
Yes , I was disappointed with this fact as well ☹️. I bought 100€ Audio extractor to connect Chromecast Ultra. And I’m getting only stereo with Beam connected by optical SPDIF.
I have tried 5.1 edid than Netflix doesn’t offer any titles with more than two channels audio to cast.
When switched to 7.1 edid I was able to select audio with more than two channels on Netflix, but Sonos application gives messages that Beam doesn’t support DD+.
I don’t have ARC on my TV that is why I bought this extractor for audio.

Now I’m stuck wit this useless setup.

I don't know if you ever got your problem fixed but I had a 2017 Samsung TV which did not communicate well with my Xfinity box. It would only pass the stereo signal back to my Playbar (Playbar is optical only so HDMI not involved here). But both TV and cable box were supposed to be Dolby 5.1 compatible. What I ended up having to do was to buy a EDID emulator and then finally the TV and cable box would communicate properly. The emulator I bought was this one:

https://amzn.to/2tP4NtH

Maybe this will help someone else be able to use Dolby 5.1 at least.


Did you have to change anything in the EDID emulator, or was it just plug and play? I see that there is a switch with multiple settings on it. I am hoping that could fix my problem. I have a Samsung TV and when I pass the audio through the TV, the Beam only sees stereo. If I use an optical cable directly from the cable box to the Beam it sees Dolby Digital. I have an Apple TV also connected to the TV, and that passes Dolby Digital to the Beam through the TV. So I think that box could be the answer.

Did you put the EDID emulator between the Xinity box and the TV?


Yes. The EDID emulator has some switches on it so you can tell it what it is supposed to be outputting video wise. I believe just having it between the two devices allowed it talk “talk” to one another audio wise.

On the second question, yes you need to place it between the TV and the Xfinity box.

Good luck!

I don't know if you ever got your problem fixed but I had a 2017 Samsung TV which did not communicate well with my Xfinity box. It would only pass the stereo signal back to my Playbar (Playbar is optical only so HDMI not involved here). But both TV and cable box were supposed to be Dolby 5.1 compatible. What I ended up having to do was to buy a EDID emulator and then finally the TV and cable box would communicate properly. The emulator I bought was this one:

https://amzn.to/2tP4NtH

Maybe this will help someone else be able to use Dolby 5.1 at least.


Did you have to change anything in the EDID emulator, or was it just plug and play? I see that there is a switch with multiple settings on it. I am hoping that could fix my problem. I have a Samsung TV and when I pass the audio through the TV, the Beam only sees stereo. If I use an optical cable directly from the cable box to the Beam it sees Dolby Digital. I have an Apple TV also connected to the TV, and that passes Dolby Digital to the Beam through the TV. So I think that box could be the answer.

Did you put the EDID emulator between the Xinity box and the TV?
Word of warning for anyone looking at the Beam to start a 5.1 surround sound system, it will NOT work ideally for any streaming box except the Apple TV. I would suggest really doing your research and/or staying away from the Beam if you want a home theater solution.

The Beam does not support Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) and only supports PCM (poor quality) or Dolby Digital. Why does that matter? DD+ is the current standard. Dolby (the only thing Sonos support) sounds good but is hardly used anymore by anything halfway modern. PCM is the audio equivilent to standard definition TV.

DD+ is the de facto standard for streaming boxes and services. Hulu, Netflix, HBO and I want to say Plex support this standard and only this standard. Those services do not use Dolby Digital. To get Dolby Digital, that means the stream must be downconverted (transcoded) on the fly by either your streaming device or your TV before reaching the Beam. If you do not convert, you are forced to use the poor quality PCM.

Now here's the rub. Few TVs downconvert. If you have one that does? Great! You should have few problems. Thing is though today, few streaming boxes do as well. In fact, the only one that does that I can tell is the Apple TV 4K. The nVidia Shield does not, nor does any modern Roku device. The 2016 Ruku Ultra does, but the 2017 and 2018 models do NOT. Looking at Roku forums, a software update from Roku may have removed that option thus meaning no Roku converts DD+ to D.

I can not believe Sonos is selling a device, geared for home theater, that does not support what is a very common standard. Every single streaming device support DD+ along with all the major players including Netflix and Hulu. It is THE standard, yet Sonos does not support it.

Keep this in mind as you're researching. I find it very disappointing, and will be returning my Sonos products.


I don't know if you ever got your problem fixed but I had a 2017 Samsung TV which did not communicate well with my Xfinity box. It would only pass the stereo signal back to my Playbar (Playbar is optical only so HDMI not involved here). But both TV and cable box were supposed to be Dolby 5.1 compatible. What I ended up having to do was to buy a EDID emulator and then finally the TV and cable box would communicate properly. The emulator I bought was this one:

https://amzn.to/2tP4NtH

Maybe this will help someone else be able to use Dolby 5.1 at least.
Userlevel 1
Badge
If they don't, they can expect customer migration to other products. It's not just a passing fad, it's how ARC will be implemented going forward across the board.

eARC is about more than just increased bandwidth for higher bitrate audio streams.

It's a slippery slope, however. Everyone thinks they want Atmos, yet the amount of Atmos enabled home theaters that have the correct speaker deployment to utilize the benefits of Atmos is still quite small. I do think Sonos is actively adding more focus to their home theater category specifically as for them , and everyone, it's starting to heat up. It's a byproduct if the widespread availability of 1000s and 1000s of choices in multi channel ready content now at your fingertips inside your tv or a small box plugged into it. I would expect to see a less expensive set of rears from them so you aren't using play ones (just absurdity from the get go). Possibly some upfiring Atmos fronts if they dive in with both feet.

Sonos is not a home theater product, it was an afterthought. It's trying to be everything to everyone, and when you do that, product suffers. Be in the whole house music game or be in the single room multi channel home theater game..they are two different beasts, two different things. Cinema audio is quite different than music based stereo audio in countless ways.

For Atmos, You have two choices for height. Upfiring or ceiling mount. You have a high or vaulted ceiling, upfiring is useless and ceiling mount is expensive. Somewhat similarly to 7.1 for the general consumer, it's not practical.

This is where DTS X shines big time. That object based format can be used in any speaker configuration while Atmos is essentially height based. He heght speakers and Atmis isn't much to look at..or better said, listen to. Virtual Atmos is there, but it lacks comparatively (my opinion and my direct eval).

Sync adjust is present in more and more TV's outside of eARC. ARC is widely known to have sync issues and that addresses it. The reason is, more and more TV's are doing crazy processing shit to video signals which creates the issue as the audio gets decided and heard faster than the tv can take that wonderful 24fps Spielberg classic and make it a nice , wet looking and dynamically different 60 fps .
2496wireless,

So, like me, do you expect the next generation PlayBar to support eARC, given too its backward compatibility? Only most of the streaming video services certainly seem to be heading towards Dolby Atmos, including Netflix, Prime Video, Apple Movies etc; some of which have their Apps built into, or connected to, many popular brands of TV these days, which do all the necessary processing/decoding before it is passed to the Receiver.

I understand that HDMI eARC ports will be appearing on new TV's later this year, here in the UK ...and one thing noticeable in the comparison chart above is that lip-sync correction is considered as being 'mandatory', rather than 'optional' with that type of hardware and is something that some sections of the industry really need to address.
Userlevel 1
Badge
Not true as you've worded it. You don't need to use eARC to enjoy those codecs. For example, you can have a Dolby Atmos, DD+, or DTS X source direct into any component that has a decoder for it via an straight HDMI connection and it's fine You just can't do it using ARC .eARC is only necessary if you plan on using your TV as the source to feed the audio stream to your home theater and that audio stream is a higher bandwidth format than legacy ARC supports ( the most common version in use today). This means multi-channel PCM, True HD, Atmos, DTS X, DD+, etc.

Regardless, no Sonos products have decoders for any of those audio formats, nor do they support eARC and that's not changeable, it's a hardware limitation. So if you own a Sonos product, currently you get Dolby Digital at 640Kbps or Stereo PCM and thats all you'll ever get. DTS in any flavor isn't an option as we know.

Sonos must support eARC to stay relevant going forward. This means you're all re-buying new Sonos products to get it and the support for the good stuff in audio formats, or you're buying something else that supports everything including DTS if they continue to shun that format entirely.
2496wireless,

For multi-channel audio to work well using the Dolby Atmos or DTS-X codecs, it looks like we’re all going to need new TV's with HDMI eARC, that’s from reading your post above and also looking at this brief comparison chart...

Userlevel 1
Badge

The Beam does not support Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) and only supports PCM (poor quality) .


ARC and Optical cannot physically support DD+ and can only support 2 channels of PCM. As an ARC and Optical only product, it's not even an option for them to support it.

Also,another tip. PCM is uncompressed audio. It is the farthest you can get from poor quality. . It is 1,411 Kbps PER CHANNEL at CD quality, which is lower than Disc based LPCM streams. Dolby Digital is compressed and lossy at 640 Kbps FOR ALL 6 CHANNELS COMBINED. Just a tiny difference...lol

5.1 channels of uncompressed audio would be 8.466 Kpbs aka 8.5 Mbps. More channels, do the math. Thus the advent of Tru-HD and DTS Master Audio...aka Lossless codecs. The quality of uncompressed audio without the huge bitrates.

The issue is that ARC and Optical do not have the capability to handle the large bitrates. The bandwidth limitations of ARC and optical allow for only 2 channels of PCM and the DDP, Dolby True HD, DTS-MA data rates also exceeds the bandwidth limitations as well. ARC and Optical output is the exact same digital stream (SPDIF) simply going out whichever of the two outputs you tell it to.

The fact is here, 99% of Sonos customers could not tell the difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital Plus. Especially through a Beam alone. The drivers are too small and the electronics too low end to make it possible. You'd need to be at a significantly higher price tag and quality level of hardware before it would be tangible to the average Sonos consumer.

Matter of fact, you can go full 5.1 Sonos and still it would go unnoticed. An simple enthusiast would notice DTS vs Dolby Digital LONG before they would notice DDP vs DD. DTS is a significantly better performing decoder than Dolby, and has been for many years. However, Dolby has done a fantastic job of marketing the brand, especially Atmos. With Blu ray's going the way of the cassette (you see Samsung announced they are no longer making Bluray players..at all anymore.), and DTS being the dominant player in that space...they have reason for concern looking forward.

Nonetheless That's a big part of the reason why you don't have DDP. You wont hear it. The other part of that is that in order to offer DDP, they would have to pay a higher royalty to Dolby per unit sold.

If you wont hear it, why the hell would they pay it? It's giving away money and they are a public company now.

It's just business folks.
I'm having a similar issue with my Sony A8F, which I describe in detail here: https://en.community.sonos.com/ask-a-question-228987/beam-5-1-with-sony-a8f-and-youtube-6819304

Any help would be appreciated.
I have a Samsung tv ...... go to ..... SETTINGS ....... SOUND ....... EXPERT SETTINGS ......... DIGITAL OUTPUT AUDIO FORMAT .......... It’s defaulted from the factory as PCM ......... Change that to DOLBY DIGITAL
Badge +2
Hi! Just wanted to share my setup. I’m using ATV 4K with Playbar + Ones as surrounds. Samsung Series 7 2018 TV with support for DD 5.1 AND DD+. No matter if I play Netflix from the ATV or the Samsung Netflix app I get DD 5.1 to my playbar through optical. No issues whatsoever.
I'm using a Nvidia Shield connected to my Samsung MU6120 via HDMI. My Beam is connected to the TV using the optical connection because my PS4 Pro does not play nice with other devices connected to the HDMI-ARC connection.

When watching Netflix or Prime Video from my Shield I've always got a DD signal passing through to my Beam from my TV. My TV allows for me to select and send either PCM, DD or DTS Neo 2:5 when connected to my Beam. DTS and DD+ are the only options I cannot select.
Not an engineer, but if the Netflix application isn't receiving the CEC request, then yea, it wouldn't work. This is one of the reasons that I continue to suggest on these forums that you need to set the audio settings wherever you can. There's no guaranty that each app recognizes the signal request being sent back. Although I'd say that it's odd, given that you state that the Nvidia shield is CEC compliant. But I'd point out that you're stating DD+, and Sonos technically isn't DD+ compliant, they're only Dolby Digital, without the plus.

I've seen enough issues with the entire CEC API that I just don't trust it to do what it purports to do all the time, without issue. At the end of the day, I'm a fan of both belt and suspenders. If i have the option to set the audio settings to Dolby Digital, and not have it attempting to send Dolby Digital Plus, or DTS, or frankly anything else, I'm going to choose to set it to Dolby Digital.

There's just too many threads about issues with the Nvidia (which I think is actually NVIDIA) shield, and the Roku devices to satisfy my paranoia.
Badge
The function that Ryan S is talking about is part of the HDMI-CEC connection, and only available on the Beam when connected with the HDMI-ARC connection, as he states. Since it's part of the HDMI connection, any source that is connected with an HDMI-CEC connection will get the automatic switch to Dolby Digital. But that's only if the device sending the signal is HDMI-CEC compliant.

To be sure to understand, in my example

Player : Nvidia Shield (DD+ compliant and CEC compliant)
TV : SONY KDL-46HX820 (DD+ complianta nd CEC compliant)
Beam connected on the HDMI ARC port

The Netflix application that run on the player must be compliant also with CEC ?

The same player connected on another sound bar, show 5.1 signal on Netflix....
The function that Ryan S is talking about is part of the HDMI-CEC connection, and only available on the Beam when connected with the HDMI-ARC connection, as he states. Since it's part of the HDMI connection, any source that is connected with an HDMI-CEC connection will get the automatic switch to Dolby Digital. But that's only if the device sending the signal is HDMI-CEC compliant.
Badge
Hi sexyflanders, thanks for sharing.

I wanted to clarify that Dolby Digital Plus is fully compatible with Dolby Digital 5.1 per Dolby specifications/requirements. The Beam will also tell whatever device it's connected with via HDMI-ARC that it wants a Dolby Digital 5.1 audio signal, and just about all of the TVs that I've seen will automatically convert Dolby Digital Plus into DD5.1 following that handshake. You should be good to send any Dolby Digital Plus to your TV and it'll send DD5.1 to your Beam over HDMI-ARC.


What about Netflix, Amazon Video and other streaming services that check the capability before sending the audio signal and do not propose the 5.1 sound profil and only stereo ?
Userlevel 2
Badge +3


The Apple TV 4K does the downconversion from DD+ to 5.1 for me, so when I use a DD+ app such as Netflix my TV sees it as 5.1 thus the Sonos does as well. As far as I know, Apple TV is the only device capable of doing this. This is a bit disappointing because IMO I think the Apple 4K device is one of the worst between Shield, Roku and Apple.


I'ts obviously subjective just curious why you feel the Apple 4K device is the worst? I've had all 3 and found the roku to be the worst by a longshot and the Shield was ok got the ATV 4K and havent looked back by far the best streaming device ive owned
Word of warning for anyone looking at the Beam to start a 5.1 surround sound system, it will NOT work ideally for any streaming box except the Apple TV. I would suggest really doing your research and/or staying away from the Beam if you want a home theater solution.

The Beam does not support Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) and only supports PCM (poor quality) or Dolby Digital. Why does that matter? DD+ is the current standard. Dolby (the only thing Sonos support) sounds good but is hardly used anymore by anything halfway modern. PCM is the audio equivilent to standard definition TV.

DD+ is the de facto standard for streaming boxes and services. Hulu, Netflix, HBO and I want to say Plex support this standard and only this standard. Those services do not use Dolby Digital. To get Dolby Digital, that means the stream must be downconverted (transcoded) on the fly by either your streaming device or your TV before reaching the Beam. If you do not convert, you are forced to use the poor quality PCM.

Now here's the rub. Few TVs downconvert. If you have one that does? Great! You should have few problems. Thing is though today, few streaming boxes do as well. In fact, the only one that does that I can tell is the Apple TV 4K. The nVidia Shield does not, nor does any modern Roku device. The 2016 Ruku Ultra does, but the 2017 and 2018 models do NOT. Looking at Roku forums, a software update from Roku may have removed that option thus meaning no Roku converts DD+ to D.

I can not believe Sonos is selling a device, geared for home theater, that does not support what is a very common standard. Every single streaming device support DD+ along with all the major players including Netflix and Hulu. It is THE standard, yet Sonos does not support it.

Keep this in mind as you're researching. I find it very disappointing, and will be returning my Sonos products.


Hi I have an ATV 4k, can you explain the required configuration?

If apple TV downgrade to DD send this to TV trough HDMI, TV has only DD+ or DTS output, no pass through, what beam it will receive trough ARC HDMI, DD+ or PCM?
Hope I was clear, not good with audio standards, just very disappointed when I have unboxed everything and I so now 5.1 surround 😞
Badge +1
we do up-mix the sound ourselves, playing a simulated surround sound so your surrounds won't remain silent, even if it's just getting the stereo signal.

How can I get that? I've tried and tried with my Beam and 2 Play:1's and the surrounds go silent on 2.0 streams.... 😞
Userlevel 2
Can confirm I’m having same issues with a Samsung tv and using either a fire stick or newest roku ultra. Very annoying that I can’t get actual surround sound (not Sonos simulating surround from stereo input) for any streaming services bc they are all in DD+ ; this is something that lots of commodity sound bars support so it cant be that hard. The answer of “get a new tv that is capable of passing DD signal even if input is DD+” isn’t acceptable. Assume more ppl aren’t complaining bc they’ve never even heard of DD or DD+; they are just ignorantly listening to stereo sound.
Sexyflanders,

If you read this link to a Dolby publication, it briefly explains the difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital Plus:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-digital-plus-data-sheet.pdf

DD+ is not really going to make that much of a difference in a 5.1 surround sound setup, which is being used by the Beam and like I mentioned earlier I think it’s more the failing of the Samsung TV (or the HDMI Cable), as much as anything else here as most TV's will decode a DD+ signal to Dolby Digital over HDMI standard 1.3... it will down convert to PCM stereo over HDMI 1.1, 1.2.

I can see why the Sonos developers/engineers chose to go with Dolby 5.1, as that format is 'best suited' for the product. If the Beam had been part of a 7.1 surround system, then I’m sure Sonos would have chosen to go with DD+, or better still, Dolby Atmos.

Anyone could argue about other codecs like DTS or Atmos, but Sonos have really chosen the one that’s very popular and most appropriate for their 5.1 configuration.

My LG TV (as stated) does appear to convert/transcode my DD+ Signals to DD and according to Ryan’s post above, so do the majority of other TV's... “just about all the TV's that I’ve seen will automatically convert Dolby Digital Plus into DD5.1”.

So I still think that your 'beef' should perhaps be aimed towards your particular model of Samsung TV here, rather than the Beam, as it appears that device is not doing what the majority of other TV's will do when it comes to transcoding DD+. It’s actually quite odd, because the link to the Dolby Document above in this post suggests such transcoding to DD5.1 is built into almost every product.

If it transpires it’s not your TV, then I would perhaps check that your HDMI Cables support the HDMI 1.3 standard.