Question

Using my Sonos (and other) equipment to create a surround sound system

  • 24 September 2017
  • 40 replies
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I have had a Sonos system for years but used it strictly for music. I have not tried to incorporate my TV to create a surround sound system but thought perhaps I should give it a try. Here is the equipment I have:

2 - Play 5’s
1 - Play 1
2 - CONNECT:AMPS
1 - 4th gen Apple TV
1 - Sony Sound bar with sub
4 - in ceiling speakers (not currently in use)

I currently have the sound bar as the primary output for the TV. I am not sure how (or if) a surround system can be created out of all of this. And finally, if it can be done, then does that preclude the Sonos items being used from playing music?

I am thinking that one way to do it would be to just use the 2 CONNECT:AMPS to drive the surround output of the 4 in ceiling speakers and continue to utilize the sound bar with its sub.

Anyone have some ideas for me?

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40 replies

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Getting ready to run the cable. Due to space restrictions, I need to use a flat cable (using cat 6) to get through existing holes in the floor. However, the hole is not big enough for the mod to fit through so I will have to cut the mod off, slip the cable through the hole in the floor and then re-attach a new mod with a crimping tool. Watched some videos on you tube and seems simple enough. The question is what standard to use when I re-attach the new mod - 568A, 568B, straight through or crossover?
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Ok, it's time to think about the mechanics of the installation. The router is staying put in a utility closet in the center of the house. The TV in question is also staying put in its location about 50' away. Since I will be using a CONNECT:AMP to drive existing ceiling speakers as the rear, I need to get a hardwire connection from the router to the Playbase. Fortunately there is a workable crawlspace to run the cable. So the question is what type of cable to use? From what I have read, it seems cat 6 is the way to go. Any insights would be appreciated.
I don't, although I've not "heard" one yet. And I've not seen any intimation that you can link them for stereo, or connect them to a TV for audio in that fashion. But I'm certainly not saying it's a bad device, it would be fine for lots of people, I suspect (and Amazon does too, otherwise they wouldn't be bringing it out).

But if it were me, it certainly wouldn't stop me from buying a PLAYBASE.
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Just as I was about to pull the trigger on buying a Playbase, this news comes out and I thought I should at least ask the question of those who are much more familiar with the potential of SERIOUS competition from them:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/27/16372578/new-amazon-echo-speaker-announced-price-release-date-2017

Do you see them as a threat to future of Sonos?
I'm sudden reminded of why I took a break from these forums. Too many fan boys who don't appreciate that the only way to improve a brand is to provide constructive criticism and suggest ways it could be better.

I'll crawl back under my bridge, at least the Three Little Pigs are courteous with their responses.
The validity of some of your criticisms has been repeatedly acknowledged. If that was your aim then you have been successful. Although the same criticisms have been made and acknowledged since the day the Playbar was launched.
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I'm sudden reminded of why I took a break from these forums. Too many fan boys who don't appreciate that the only way to improve a brand is to provide constructive criticism and suggest ways it could be better.

I'll crawl back under my bridge, at least the Three Little Pigs are courteous with their responses.
It really is unfair to call @RO53BEN a troll. Trolls set out to provoke and annoy, and that is clearly not the intention (although for some it may be the result).

There also has to be room for dissenting voices on here, and I am sure the intention is to help.

But are we doomed to see these identical posts on every Playbar/base thread for years to come? That is a dispiriting thought for me I am afraid, however well-meaning the intention.
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- Stay courteous. Everyone wants to have a positive experience on The Sonos Community - so make sure that you are not detracting from anyone else’s experience.


Re-quoting for emphasis, let’s all remember to keep it friendly. Differing opinions are good, they lead to conversation and progress. But we should all remember not to go off the rails when answering questions. Let’s please stay on point with the question at hand and the conversation of the thread. There’s especially no reason to throw around personal attacks.
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Reported.
Userlevel 3
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I would love for the mods to step in and give their views on your persistent trolling. (BTW if you can't work out that what you're doing is wrong even when the people who agree with you get annoyed, there's really nothing to say)
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I started writing a response to this but the mistakes in the above are just too voluminous to counteract each and every point. The lack of awareness that not everyone might have the same requirements just smacks of pure arrogance. Really surprised that Sonos Mods allow this, but in short it cannot be right that people who come onto this forum to look for advice and are basically trolled with the same response from a disgruntled user who didn't realise their requirements soon enough.

The biggest mistake here is when you said you'd made your last post. It was a good discussion for a while there.

Talk about the products, not the people. I'm getting tired of your constant personal attacks which I am sure are in contravention of the forum "Code of Conduct".


- Stay courteous. Everyone wants to have a positive experience on The Sonos Community - so make sure that you are not detracting from anyone else's experience. In particular, refrain from posting anything unlawful, libelous, defamatory, inflammatory, obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd, harassing, threatening, harmful, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, abusive, or otherwise objectionable or injurious to third parties. Your opinions are always welcome, but personal attacks and harassment ("flaming") on either The Sonos Community or through private messaging are not acceptable.


Enough! I will flag any future off-topic personal attacks for moderator attention.
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I started writing a response to this but the mistakes in the above are just too voluminous to counteract each and every point. The lack of awareness that not everyone might have the same requirements just smacks of pure arrogance. Really surprised that Sonos Mods allow this, but in short it cannot be right that people who come onto this forum to look for advice and are basically trolled with the same response from a disgruntled user who didn't realise their requirements soon enough.
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Skelton - thanks for the feedback, noted.

It's worth pointing out that I do feel there are some good scenarios for Playbase/Playbar, although there are fewer than they used to be.

Around the time of PLAYBAR launch, most competing soundbar products were compromising and, frankly, quite rubbish. HDMI audio was in its infancy and Sonos was (and still is) the best solution for streaming music. For Sonos owners, who enjoyed home cinema, it was a pain to have two sets of speakers in the Living Room - so many of us opted for a Sonos Connect device that connect to our existing cinema system.

It wasn't without its problems, you had to be on the right music input, you often ended up with two volume controls and it was all a bit confusing. PLAYBAR was to be the saviour, by combining both systems together as one. Good quality TV audio and music in one "wife friendly" speaker unit with the added bonus of being able to stream TV audio into other rooms.

It worked perfectly, but it didn't. We crashed and burned when it came to DTS. The noise generated by this vocal minority was huge but, ultimately, Sonos decreed that it was never going to happen. Credit where it's due, Sonos offered affected owners a full refund of a speaker what was, for many owners, well beyond the returns period.

But what were the alternatives? There actually weren't many, if any at all. There were lots of soundbars on sale, but none of them could integrate with Sonos, or indeed handle streaming audio very well. Any alternative you chose would compromise on the music options. As far as I know, very few owners returned their devices. It was still the best option, despite known limitations. I waited over a year for the DTS decision, having had an early test unit for the best part of a year before it went on sale. If you think I'm critical now, you should see the feedback I gave the product developers during that time :O)

Ultimately, PLAYBAR wasn't the product I wanted it to be but it was still the best option on the market and I stuck with it for some five years. During that time I learned every positive, every negative and all the little quirks. The launch of Trueplay helped revitalise the audio and improved speech from the unit but, in the end, I finally had enough money in the bank to look at alternatives.

The world had moved on in those five years. There are now some outstanding soundbar products on the market. The majority of Sonos owners only listen to Spotify these days, and the latest products all handle that. Sonos now encourages us to use Spotify through the Spotify app instead of the Sonos controller. It works well and utilises "Spotify Connect". However other speaker manufacturers can now do this and my new home theatre set-up integrates in exactly the same way. If I press the "cast" button in the Spotify app, it gives me the choice of all my Sonos speakers or my new home theatre. I click in exactly the same way. If the Denon isn't turned on, it powers up automatically. No other controls needed, I can control volume from the Spotify app too. It's the same experience I had with Sonos, only I don't use Sonos for it.

The world moved on whilst Sonos stood still. Five years ago I decided whether to go full AV home cinema or use PLAYBAR. Sonos were so far ahead with streaming music etc. it was a no brainer. But now, it's a very different market. People still love bluetooth connections, something Sonos never offered. Everybody links to internet radio and Spotify and offers software updates. In most cases, the options are considerably cheaper.

The base product is still reasonable value though. At £699 it offers good TV audio in a tidy package that integrates tightly with your existing Sonos music system. It costs a little more than 2 x Play:3 speakers but offers the necessary digital audio in and is a compact unit for its contents. For wall mounted TVs it's a particularly tidy solution, although it was always a little large for many TV stands - which is where the Playbase comes in. I have no doubt there is a good market for both products and they are priced fairly as value added Sonos music speakers.

I'd be quite happy to recommend either product to an existing owner on a standalone basis, just for the convenience factor alongside other speakers. I can understand why people buy one and then get another for an adjacent room.

My concerns only come when there is a plan to add surround speakers or a SUB for "surround sound". Sonos doesn't do this particularly well and isn't compatible with modern movie audio codecs and connectivity.

Adding a SUB basically doubles the price. Adding surround speakers is at least half the cost of another PLAYBAR. You go from a £699 TV speaker to an £1800 cinema system that doesn't even support DTS.

To compare, here's a £569 home cinema system that can handle anything up to Dolby Atmos 5.1.2

https://www.richersounds.com/tv-home-cinema/home-cinema-systems/onkyo-atmos-5-1-2-package-system-inc-speakers-excluding-dvd-player.html

It won't directly integrate with Sonos but you can buy 2 x PLAY:5 speakers for the saving, or just plug a Sonos Connect in the back.

Instead of going low end, I used a PLAYBAR 5.1 set-up cost to help budget for my separates system. I looked at what I could get in cinema world for £1800. I ended up with a speaker set that's around £1000

https://www.richersounds.com/tv-home-cinema/speaker-packages/q-acoustics-7000i-plus-black.html

Then I added a Denon receiver worth £500:

https://www.richersounds.com/tv-home-cinema/av-receivers/denon-avrx3300-blk.html

As I bought them together, I got a good discount so only paid £1300 for the lot - less than a PLAYBAR and SUB without surround speakers.

It handles everything I want, across two rooms. I can still send the TV audio to the next room like I could with Sonos. I still have the Spotify connection etc. It just works, and it costs less.

I'm not somebody who listens to a request from somebody who wants to spend £250 and tells them they want to buy a £10,000 speaker system instead. I'm telling them to spend LESS money to get MORE functionality.

The price of home cinema systems has tumbled in recent years, you get serious bang for your buck.

So if somebody wants a home cinema cinema, or even might want to expand to one in the future, no I don't recommend Sonos. It's a good TV audio solution and I'd recommend it for that, but it can't even compete in the home theatre world.
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I do appreciate all of the input. While the discussion has gone into depths I had not imagined, I have learned a lot and come to the conclusion that a PLAYBASE will serve me well in my application.
Good luck. Hopefully the cabling isn't too bad.

One option to consider, if your property permits, is to go out and in. I have an ethernet cable running on the outside of my house as I couldn't find an internal route past the chimney breast of my fireplace.

Strongly recommend you do not do this unless you've got actual experience in proper networking. Running cat5 in without entrance protection is a great way to fry everything it touches.

I take a lot of criticism on here for being opinionated, and you're welcome to take it with as much salt as you like. I just want potential buyers to go into the big purchase with their eyes open.

I hate to veer of topic, but since the original poster is set...

You may take some criticism for being opinionated. You take a lot of criticism for carrying a bias that apparently prevents you from perceiving how people's use cases may result in different requirements than yours.

Look, you have several important points that are valuable for people considering the product. If you could provide that detail without projecting your very specific concerns onto every request you wouldn't be occasionally criticized for your posting style. Instead, it comes across as you posting the same complaint in every Playbase/playbar thread because you won't.

Further your current position, as best I can tell, is that there's no good scenario for Playbase/Playbar, and that everyone whose experience is positive simply isn't as intelligent as you. We don't have to debate whether that's what you actually mean, but that's the impression you clearly give to some people here. This is the other reason why you receive the criticism. It's certainly your decision on how what and how you post, but if you want to avoid the criticism that you mention then a change in your approach would do wonders. Hopefully this helps.
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I do appreciate all of the input. While the discussion has gone into depths I had not imagined, I have learned a lot and come to the conclusion that a PLAYBASE will serve me well in my application. Now my only problem is to figure out how to get a wired connection from my router to my TV area. Both are in ideal spots and it is almost impossible to accomplish. I will have to get down & dirty in the crawl space and see if it can be done. Wish me well.

Cat5 network cabling is surprisingly easy to route, if needed, although try to route cable without the plug as it's easier and prevents the tab breaking off - which they have a habit of doing.

Don't be tempted to use those ethernet power adapters. They don't work very well, degrade quickly with age, and most importantly are not supported by Sonos - you need a proper wired network.

One option to consider, if your property permits, is to go out and in. I have an ethernet cable running on the outside of my house as I couldn't find an internal route past the chimney breast of my fireplace.

Good luck with your set-up
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No, because when all is said and done to discourage someone from buying a Playbar/Playbase whose needs seem to differ elementarily from yours, I prefer to not contribute to the mess.

He already has wired surround speakers, his needs are met at least as much with a wired system than a "wireless" one. He has 4 of the 7 speakers required for a Dolby Atmos set-up and he may even be able to re-use the Sony SUB with a traditional AV setup, further increasing savings.
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I do appreciate all of the input. While the discussion has gone into depths I had not imagined, I have learned a lot and come to the conclusion that a PLAYBASE will serve me well in my application. Now my only problem is to figure out how to get a wired connection from my router to my TV area. Both are in ideal spots and it is almost impossible to accomplish. I will have to get down & dirty in the crawl space and see if it can be done. Wish me well.
No, because when all is said and done to discourage someone from buying a Playbar/Playbase whose needs seem to differ elementarily from yours, I prefer to not contribute to the mess.
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RO53BEN, so, are we committed to bow our head to your be-all and end-of-all wisdom?

Were talking about products, not people.

Do you have something constructive to contribute to the thread? I'm sure the OP would appreciate any relevant input.
RO53BEN, so, are we committed to bow our head to your be-all and end-of-all wisdom?
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Just a note here Dolby Digital Plus will automatically be converted to Dolby Digital 5.1 as they're fully compatible.


Are you saying that you can feed a Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) source into a PLAYBAR over optical and you won't get silence? Or are you just assuming that a legacy AC-3 substream will always be included in the E-AC-3 stream?


Netflix, Apple TV, Amazon Instant Video all sound great on my PLAYBAR, no settings or otherwise needed.


You may well be happy, that's the optimistic viewpoint. The guy who posted a recent thread about silence in movies on his new Apple TV may disagree. The problem here is that everybody's experience will vary depending on what they plug the Sonos device into, there is no consistency. If I watch Netflix from the app build into my TV, I get 5.1 surround. If I watch it using an Amazon Fire TV device, I get 2.0 stereo. With the same TV and same speaker system. This is very confusing for owners. In some cases it's just a quick tweak in the settings, other times it will never work without juggling optical switchboxes, HDMI adapters and splitters. People are paying a premium but getting a lesser experience.


The biggest thing I would say is that if your home theater is all about or largely Blu-Rays that's the only time the PLAYBAR doesn't automatically shine. And in those cases, if you have one of the players or game consoles that converts that to Dolby Digital on the fly, than you'll be all set.


DVD, blu-ray, 4K UHD blu-ray, Wii U, Nintendo Switch, Apple TV. All of these will likely have problems out of the box as they don't support the default surround sound set-up required for Sonos. This is very confusing for buyers.


Naturally, it's important to look into what you need in your home, and what your habits are. Personally, I cut the cord a while ago and haven't bought physical media in a long time. DTS isn't even a format that's gotten to my TV as it's only used by Blu-Rays.


DTS was used for DVD in the 1990s long before blu-ray or indeed Sonos existed. Sure, if you don't watch movies then your exposure may be limited. But "Home Theatre" is movies, not TV.


I'm also not looking for massive stereo speakers with 9 dedicated channels orbiting my living room. In the end, if you're interested in checking out the PLAYBAR, we offer a pretty great money back guaranty for all units purchased through us. You can always try it in your home and make the decision yourself.


This is where your viewpoint is very wrong.. I don't have "massive stereo speakers" - the front channels are smaller than my PLAYBAR. The surround speakers are smaller than the PLAY:3s and even PLAY:1s they replaced and don't require a mains power connection.

I've got an amp that supports every mainstream audio codec in existence, a sub and 5 small pill shaped speakers. I've got 8 HDMI inputs and 2 outputs, so I can watch my media in two different rooms concurrently or a different source in each. It's got bluetooth and Apple compatibility built in, handy for visitors and also support Digital Radio and Spotify Connect.

All for hundreds less than the cost of an equivalent Sonos set-up.

It's not just about the big box ticking things, like DTS support and hi-resolution audio. It's as much about the little things. Like when you use Netflix...

Pressing play on a Netflix show, you get the red Netflix logo accompanied by two gongs. Or one gong. Or one and a half gongs. Or no gongs at all. It all depends how quickly the Sonos optical port wakes up and switches over. It's convenient, and no accident, that Netflix did this - it allows the Sonos system time to adjust. It doesn't help when you pause a show though. Phone rings, drink break, toilet break, somebody at the door. PAUSE. Then, when you press play, it takes Sonos a couple of seconds to start outputting sound. You miss what somebody said and have to rewind to before where you pressed pause, allowing time for Sonos to wake up before it gets to the point you want to continue from. It's just a little niggle, but something that grated at me for years. I missed the first beats of songs when watching YouTube, as the audio cut out between videos. Same problem with blu-ray or even broadcast TV from my set-top box. Often the audio would even go out of sync after pausing, which was another annoyance - as much the fault of the TV as Sonos, but Sonos depended on that broken optical output which other solutions don't.

I've been with TV since black & white days and marketing always pushes the latest and greatest thing. Initially colour TV, then perfectly flat screens instead of goldfish bowls. We got stereo sound, then prologic surround, then 5.1 digital surround. We got DTS, widescreen, 100Hz to reduce flicker. We moved on to flat LCD or Plasma TVs, if we could afford them. Then it became LED and OLED. We went from SD to HD to full HD and now to 4k UHD. We went from DD 5.1 to DTS to DTS-HD. We went from SDR to HDR for better contrast.

HDR has been the big thing for the last year or so and, now it's being pushed by Apple, it's a done deal. Everybody will now want HDR. So what's the next big thing? Atmos.

Pretty much everything you look at now is plugging Atmos and, having tried it, I understand why. Full, immersive, surround sound that you just can't get from a standard 5.1 set-up. Many people who had a 7.1 set-up, which was only marginally better than 5.1, are now moving two of their speakers to Atmos tasks, 5.1.2 instead of 7.1 with the same number of speakers. It works very well and isn't just a disc thing - it's now being pushed hard by streaming providers like Apple and Netflix.

Sure, they'll like support old school 5.1 for years to come, but if there are full Atmos solution on the market for hundreds less than Sonos and they just work - it's really hard to recommend a problematic legacy solution.
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My last post on this matter...


I'm glad. I quickly became tired of your unnecessary personal attacks.

This is about products not people and people have come here for an opinion on their planned solution, they don't want to hear about what your off-topic opinion of other forum members. Please close the door on your way out.
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I take a lot of criticism on here for being opinionated, and you're welcome to take it with as much salt as you like. I just want potential buyers to go into the big purchase with their eyes open.

This is an advice forum, not a fan club,. If it were that simple you'd have bought it already, but it's complicated and you need all the facts.


My last post on this matter...

RO53BEN - no one gives criticism to you for being quote-unquote "opinionated". But, without wishing to speak for others, I think people are starting to find it a bit aggravating to see your name on a thread and already know what it's going to say before reading all the way through. At this point even Helen Keller knows exactly what you're after (and I maintain my point again that you seem to be the pure antithesis of someone who should invest in the Sonos AV products, even if you only seemed to desire hi-end codecs AFTER your purchases).

It's becoming like the Reddit Home Theatre forum where someone posts politely asking for a soundbar recommendation for their grandparents for under $250 just so they can hear things a bit clearer, and they get a dozen replies telling them they have to invest in the B&W Diamond Series. I have zero interest in super high-fidelity equipment running into £10K+ setups, but I don't go onto the manufacturer's forums and keep spamming all the threads by saying it's pure snake oil and people are fooling themselves into hearing a difference. Sonos Forum Mods are way more tolerant of you trolling the Home Theatre section for some reason.

There is 100% a conversation to be had on some of your points - Dolby Digital 5.1 won't be the standard forever, and I find it interesting that we seemed to have jumped from DD5.1 straight to Atmos as the new format in both streaming services and Cable/Satellite TV (even if it's very much in it's infancy) so my bet is you'll see way more Atmos soundbars with 4K passthrough. But all of this interesting conversation gets lost in the mind-numbing repetitiveness.

And please fix the placement of your damn Q Acoustics speakers before lecturing everyone on a "proper" setup.

End of.
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But Dolby 5.1 passthru won't help if your source is a DTS Blu-ray, or Dolby Digital Plus from Apple TV or Netflix, or Dolby Atmos from 4k Blu-ray or even Sky Q.

Just a note here Dolby Digital Plus will automatically be converted to Dolby Digital 5.1 as they're fully compatible. Netflix, Apple TV, Amazon Instant Video all sound great on my PLAYBAR, no settings or otherwise needed. The biggest thing I would say is that if your home theater is all about or largely Blu-Rays that's the only time the PLAYBAR doesn't automatically shine. And in those cases, if you have one of the players or game consoles that converts that to Dolby Digital on the fly, than you'll be all set.

Naturally, it's important to look into what you need in your home, and what your habits are. Personally, I cut the cord a while ago and haven't bought physical media in a long time. DTS isn't even a format that's gotten to my TV as it's only used by Blu-Rays. I'm also not looking for massive stereo speakers with 9 dedicated channels orbiting my living room. In the end, if you're interested in checking out the PLAYBAR, we offer a pretty great money back guaranty for all units purchased through us. You can always try it in your home and make the decision yourself.
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For me, the beauty of Sonos was always simplicity. For music it always was and indeed still is. It remains the best music system I've ever owned and it's been deployed in dozens of homes of my friends, family and acquaintances as a result.

That doesn't extend to PLAYBAR though. Even when using it myself I would strongly advise people didn't buy one.

We have specific threads for which TVs might be compatible with PLAYBAR. Thread for compatible dvd and Blu-ray players. Now threads for compatible 4k Blu-ray players.

If the PLAYBAR setup worked well, you wouldn't need that. You'd just plug it in and it would work. But it doesn't. There are £200 5.1 systems on sale in the supermarket which support DTS. Sonos does not.

So why exactly it it worth over £1500 for a half baked 5.1 system? Because people with pay for it. Because their wife doesn't like wires. Because they expect it to work as well as the music gear.

I take a lot of criticism on here for being opinionated, and you're welcome to take it with as much salt as you like. I just want potential buyers to go into the big purchase with their eyes open.

This is an advice forum, not a fan club,. If it were that simple you'd have bought it already, but it's complicated and you need all the facts.