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Userlevel 4
Hi Ryan,
all that you say is completely true. The problem with this argumentation is, that Sonos is trying to avoid telling their customers, that by not supporting DTS, DD+, Dolby Atmos they end up with simple stereo sound or no sound at all.
The marketing from Sonos around the Playbar and Playbase is:
- "Two-in-one. Full-theater sound for your TV. Streams music, too."
- "Add SUB and two PLAY:1 rears for wireless 5.1 surround sound."
This is what your customers understand (based on the comments here):
- Full-theater sound = surround sound provided by the sophisticated soundbar/soundbase
- Wireless 5.1 = full 5.1 sound using Play 1/3/5 as rears speakers and a sub
The problem is:
Your customers are not typically tech-nerds. I doubt that the majority can even tell the difference between DD and DTS or why DVDs and Blue-Rays can lead to a different experience when played.
Sonos unique selling points compared to the way bigger companies in the market are:
- Sonos is easy
- We take care of the complexity.
- We enable you to integrate all of the streaming content in our system.
- We give you the best home theater experience without caring about a complex setup.
- We give you the best experience regardless of the technical complexit.
That is why we ask you to spend your money on our products.
There is the possibility to do all this. Transcode the different formats into something your playbar understands and you provide 5.1 sound, but you are not doing this. You just fall back to simple stereo sound. No other company who sells soundbars is doing that.
The answer to the question from Gwoodster should be:
No, we do not support Dolby Atmos, but if you use the 5.1 setup you will get true 5.1 surround sound and not some virtual 5.1 based on a stereo signal.
all that you say is completely true. The problem with this argumentation is, that Sonos is trying to avoid telling their customers, that by not supporting DTS, DD+, Dolby Atmos they end up with simple stereo sound or no sound at all.
The marketing from Sonos around the Playbar and Playbase is:
- "Two-in-one. Full-theater sound for your TV. Streams music, too."
- "Add SUB and two PLAY:1 rears for wireless 5.1 surround sound."
This is what your customers understand (based on the comments here):
- Full-theater sound = surround sound provided by the sophisticated soundbar/soundbase
- Wireless 5.1 = full 5.1 sound using Play 1/3/5 as rears speakers and a sub
The problem is:
Your customers are not typically tech-nerds. I doubt that the majority can even tell the difference between DD and DTS or why DVDs and Blue-Rays can lead to a different experience when played.
Sonos unique selling points compared to the way bigger companies in the market are:
- Sonos is easy
- We take care of the complexity.
- We enable you to integrate all of the streaming content in our system.
- We give you the best home theater experience without caring about a complex setup.
- We give you the best experience regardless of the technical complexit.
That is why we ask you to spend your money on our products.
There is the possibility to do all this. Transcode the different formats into something your playbar understands and you provide 5.1 sound, but you are not doing this. You just fall back to simple stereo sound. No other company who sells soundbars is doing that.
The answer to the question from Gwoodster should be:
No, we do not support Dolby Atmos, but if you use the 5.1 setup you will get true 5.1 surround sound and not some virtual 5.1 based on a stereo signal.
Userlevel 7
+21
No, we do not support Dolby Atmos, but if you use the 5.1 setup you will get true 5.1 surround sound and not some virtual 5.1 based on a stereo signal.
I agree fully here.
DTS and PCM 5.1 should easily be supported, whether they're used in streaming or not. These are formats that have been around for YEARS and are part of the surround sound landscape. Just about EVERY device capable of playing a movie - streaming or physical media - can output PCM 5.1... and while yes, DTS may only be used on physical media, about half of the movies in circulation use some form of DTS encoding. You're requiring your customers to jump through complex hoops to get the audio converted to Dolby Digital 5.1 so that they can enjoy their media the way it's intended to be experienced.
EVERY other sound bar by a major manufacturer that is on the market today - stereo or surround - supports DTS. Period, plain and simple. Your soundbar and sound stand are both a lot more expensive than any other soundbar or sound stand on the market, yet you lack this BASIC functionality. As a consumer, it shows me that you're not serious about the home theater market.
And one last point... no TRUE movie enthusiast relies SOLELY on streaming. Downloaded and streaming movies are compressed 4-5x more than the video on a Blu-Ray, and it can easily be seen in the output (many just choose not to notice). By choosing to focus solely on audio formats that are available through streaming movies, you're completely ignoring a market segment that would be more than happy to spend large amounts of money on gear so that they can get full enjoyment out of their media.
Not only that, but 4K streaming is highly inconsistent between different services and devices. I have a 4K Samsung TV, but the Vudu app available on it only supports HD. And Fandango Now, the only other service available on my TV that supports UltraViolet, wants to show some of the movies I own in 4K as SD. No thanks. Yet I own 8 movies on 4K Blu-Ray that I can watch in 4K and (thanks to a 4K Blu-Ray player that converts the audio to Dolby Digital) listen to with 5.1 surround sound. The only way I could get 4K streaming through Vudu is to purchase a piece of third-party hardware (Roku Premiere+ to get HDR), which I don't intend to do.
Userlevel 3
To me, this is a massive miss by Sonos and has me scrambling for alternatives.
For a product that was as forward thinking as Sonos was - it has been extremely technophobic since its inception. It seems to be hailing backward compatibility over forward progress - as if the two cannot coexist.
Yes, there is some truth to the "streaming crowd doesn't require all these bells and whistles" but there is a difference between music streaming and video streaming. Additionally, 4k streaming with Dolby Atmos is a thing - and Sonos is ignoring this fact to its detriment.
I used to want hi-res music on the system - but I've lived without it. I knew the benefits, if any, were marginal. The simplicity of Sonos does not warrant finding a different solution for just hi-res audio.
But, lack of support for leading cinema solutions is the height of absurdity and truly limits its appeal to the most entry level of home theater enthusiasts and is creating a hole in the market that other solutions can (and are) willing to exploit.
I love Sonos, but I am not above replacing the solution should another technology offer competitive advantages. As it stands, the best I've found are network playbars offering DTS ... but if I could find one that offers DTS-HD, Dolby Atmos, etc ... I'd switch all my Sonos gear the following day.
For a product that was as forward thinking as Sonos was - it has been extremely technophobic since its inception. It seems to be hailing backward compatibility over forward progress - as if the two cannot coexist.
Yes, there is some truth to the "streaming crowd doesn't require all these bells and whistles" but there is a difference between music streaming and video streaming. Additionally, 4k streaming with Dolby Atmos is a thing - and Sonos is ignoring this fact to its detriment.
I used to want hi-res music on the system - but I've lived without it. I knew the benefits, if any, were marginal. The simplicity of Sonos does not warrant finding a different solution for just hi-res audio.
But, lack of support for leading cinema solutions is the height of absurdity and truly limits its appeal to the most entry level of home theater enthusiasts and is creating a hole in the market that other solutions can (and are) willing to exploit.
I love Sonos, but I am not above replacing the solution should another technology offer competitive advantages. As it stands, the best I've found are network playbars offering DTS ... but if I could find one that offers DTS-HD, Dolby Atmos, etc ... I'd switch all my Sonos gear the following day.
Userlevel 7
+26
Hi Gwoodster,
Here's some details we've shared around Dolby and our decision around it.
Dolby Atmos is an attempt by Dolby to standardize cinema sound from production to theater exhibition to in-home distribution. More than just a codec, Atmos is an authoring language for cinema sound. In theory, Atmos allows a sound designer to specify the location of a specific sound in a 360 degree sphere and then render that sound ‘accurately’ whether a given room has 1 speaker or 64. You can think of Atmos like a ‘vector’ graphic format such as EPS which is a series of instructions for how to render an image vs classic Dolby Digital which is more like a GIF.
In the home context, Atmos is often described as a way to create a sphere of sound where certain sound effects appear to be located above the listeners. However, ‘ceiling sound’ is only one aspect of the Atmos format.
At Sonos, we are intrigued by the future applications of Atmos in the home context, however like most new codecs, Atmos is only as good as the content which is encoded and mastered for the format. Today, native Atmos content is very limited. Like DTS, most Atmos content is found on Blue-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray physicals discs. Only a limited amount of streaming content from VUDU uses Atmos. As Sonos is focused on modern listeners who predominantly steam, we have decided not to support Atmos at this time. We will continue to monitor the state of home entertainment to determine if Atmos is a feature that will improve the experience for the majority of our owners.
Here's some details we've shared around Dolby and our decision around it.
Dolby Atmos is an attempt by Dolby to standardize cinema sound from production to theater exhibition to in-home distribution. More than just a codec, Atmos is an authoring language for cinema sound. In theory, Atmos allows a sound designer to specify the location of a specific sound in a 360 degree sphere and then render that sound ‘accurately’ whether a given room has 1 speaker or 64. You can think of Atmos like a ‘vector’ graphic format such as EPS which is a series of instructions for how to render an image vs classic Dolby Digital which is more like a GIF.
In the home context, Atmos is often described as a way to create a sphere of sound where certain sound effects appear to be located above the listeners. However, ‘ceiling sound’ is only one aspect of the Atmos format.
At Sonos, we are intrigued by the future applications of Atmos in the home context, however like most new codecs, Atmos is only as good as the content which is encoded and mastered for the format. Today, native Atmos content is very limited. Like DTS, most Atmos content is found on Blue-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray physicals discs. Only a limited amount of streaming content from VUDU uses Atmos. As Sonos is focused on modern listeners who predominantly steam, we have decided not to support Atmos at this time. We will continue to monitor the state of home entertainment to determine if Atmos is a feature that will improve the experience for the majority of our owners.
Userlevel 2
The original response from Ryan, 8 months ago, was that high fidelity codecs were a long way off or irrelevant to the target Sonos market: streamers.
In a few short months that has turned out to be entirely false. All major video streamers (Netflix etc) are incorporating these codecs (DD+/Atmos) with regularity now.
Sonos has no answer and is getting lapped by weaker products that are easily integrating this audio capability into its sound bar home theatre solutions.
In short, the standard Sonos reply (that they were never after the bluray market) no longer holds water. They have failed to adapt. The fact that they released a new home theatre product in 2017 that runs an optical cable (and thus handicaps its capability now and in the future), is comical, really. I laughed at my dad’s Bose system 8 years ago for not having an HDMI port.
New product ($900) for television application with no HDMI? Get the fuck out of here. Who is running this company?!
In a few short months that has turned out to be entirely false. All major video streamers (Netflix etc) are incorporating these codecs (DD+/Atmos) with regularity now.
Sonos has no answer and is getting lapped by weaker products that are easily integrating this audio capability into its sound bar home theatre solutions.
In short, the standard Sonos reply (that they were never after the bluray market) no longer holds water. They have failed to adapt. The fact that they released a new home theatre product in 2017 that runs an optical cable (and thus handicaps its capability now and in the future), is comical, really. I laughed at my dad’s Bose system 8 years ago for not having an HDMI port.
New product ($900) for television application with no HDMI? Get the fuck out of here. Who is running this company?!
Userlevel 1
Netflix is now supporting Dolby Atmos through the Xbox One. Is this enough to change course at Sonos?
Userlevel 1
All,
Great points. VUDU now streams Dolby Atmos. I heard Atmos streamed thru Roku on a Yamaha soundbar. It was pretty impressive. Sadly, I have so much invested with Sonos, I hate to dumped it all to switch. It seems like Sonos missed with this product.
Great points. VUDU now streams Dolby Atmos. I heard Atmos streamed thru Roku on a Yamaha soundbar. It was pretty impressive. Sadly, I have so much invested with Sonos, I hate to dumped it all to switch. It seems like Sonos missed with this product.
We won't know, until they actually release the update that might include it. They usually don't comment on what they have in the pipeline, with a few major exceptions (Apple Music, Spotify, Amazon Alexa). But I'd doubt it, since they seem to be very 5.1 centric and Atmos is definitely more (9.1.2), which would probably mean a pretty substantial rewrite of the code base, not to mention a differing connector on the Playbar/Playbase, since Atmos bandwidth won't fit on an optical connection (that I'm aware of, a quick google search was not terribly helpful).
Okay, here is the deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOSLINK
Max bitrate is 3mb/s. Thus, forget about Dolby TrueHD(which is a codec with average bitrate of 6mb/s). Dolby Atmos is not a codec, but an immersive audio format, which can be delivered with Dolby TrueHD codec and DD+(http://developer.dolby.com/News/Dolby_Audio_Over_HDMI_Part_1__Codecs.aspx).
Eventhough, the TOSLINK can handle the DD+, but it is limited to 3mb/s, thus, theoretically, Sonos can do DD+ and Atmos, but the end user will need to look for a content with bitrate lower than 3mb/s, which is not an option as in real world you do not want to go with "half supported feature)
However, there is an option. Sonos need to create a pre-processor that will connect to one of the soundbar ethernet ports and have hdmi input. Preprocessor should take TrueHD from hdmi input, convert to data, send it over ethernet to soundbar, convert it back in soundbar and play:) As far as i understood from the entire Sonos ecosystem, the only limitation is a bandwidth of the TOS and you can potentially resolve it with hdmi to ethernet convertor and new soundbar software
Max bitrate is 3mb/s. Thus, forget about Dolby TrueHD(which is a codec with average bitrate of 6mb/s). Dolby Atmos is not a codec, but an immersive audio format, which can be delivered with Dolby TrueHD codec and DD+(http://developer.dolby.com/News/Dolby_Audio_Over_HDMI_Part_1__Codecs.aspx).
Eventhough, the TOSLINK can handle the DD+, but it is limited to 3mb/s, thus, theoretically, Sonos can do DD+ and Atmos, but the end user will need to look for a content with bitrate lower than 3mb/s, which is not an option as in real world you do not want to go with "half supported feature)
However, there is an option. Sonos need to create a pre-processor that will connect to one of the soundbar ethernet ports and have hdmi input. Preprocessor should take TrueHD from hdmi input, convert to data, send it over ethernet to soundbar, convert it back in soundbar and play:) As far as i understood from the entire Sonos ecosystem, the only limitation is a bandwidth of the TOS and you can potentially resolve it with hdmi to ethernet convertor and new soundbar software
Userlevel 3
The new Playbase should have integrated Atmos, not reinvent the Bose soundwave. I had hoped the announcement would for Amazon Echo integration. Denon & Marantz, Yamaha, and Defintive will beat Sonos to Amazon integration. Once that happens their edge is gone. Yamaha does have an Atmos soundbar which sounds very good. It's baffling.
It's sad, but true.
Sonos is a phenomenal product. Simple to use and elegant to look at - but it is being held back and it's unfortunate.
It's not so much that Atmos is required for good sound ... but be able to process it. I mean, the darn thing doesn't do DD+ which is a Netflix standard or Atmos which is offered by Vudu.
To say out of one side of your mouth: "We support the future of streaming" and then not ... stupid.
Been following PlayBar for a while now. With Apple announcing AppleTV 4K with software update coming soon for Atmos support. I’m hoping to see fresh hardware from Sonos on PlayBar. I feel the PlayBar is extremely limited and dated honestly. I’ve been there done that with high end home theater and now just want simplistic setup, but still supporting latest tech. Let’s do this Sonos, streaming is clearly the future and it seems all hardware vendors are jumping on Atmos bandwagon.
I just pulled the trigger on an LG OLED65C7P with Atmos sound. I have SONOS audio all over the house but never hooked my TV/Surround system into it. I'm looking for the right audio system to go with it as my 5.1 with the old TV is pooched. The Playbar looks very long in the tooth and while I'd like the TV hooked into the audio system - it doesn't look like money well spent now. I'll hold off for a new Playbar with Atmos support - but I hope it will be soon in 2018...if it takes too long...I'll have to find another solution...maybe add a Connect to be able to put music through it.
And now Apple TV 4k will be supporting Dolby Atmos....
Sonos, you are way outside "cutting edge" right now. This is not how you became so successful... step it up!
I'm hoping for something like a Play 3-Remake with an HDMI-Input. It could be used as center and send the DTS / Atmos / etc to any other Sonos-speakers which can then be used as left, right, rear and atmos channels.
PLEASE! I'd immediately go for this.
PLEASE! I'd immediately go for this.
Just wanted to comment on the point made a couple months ago that if Sonos can handle 32 speakers in a system, then they would be able to handle a 7.1.4 system, or whatever it is. I don't think that's a great comparison though, as the standard wholehouse setup is a net, meaning each unit passes the stereo signal on to others without the original source having to make the connection to all the units in the group itself. It also is done over 2.4 GHz and has a nice buffer. The Home Theatre setup is different in that the playbar unit has to send the right channel of sound to the right speaker by itself. It's not a net, it's more of a master slave situation. It also has to be done at 5 GHz with no real buffer in order to keep the audio in sync with the video. So in order for a new playbar to do dolby atmos , it's got to be able to send around maybe 5- 12 separate signals to all the speakers in the atmos group, with not much buffer to work with. A lot more difficult.
Not to mention, are there going to be that many customers that want to buy that many speakers and have the ability to plug them in where they need to go. I realize that a lot of the channels can be built in to the soundbar, but it's still quite a bit.
Not to mention, are there going to be that many customers that want to buy that many speakers and have the ability to plug them in where they need to go. I realize that a lot of the channels can be built in to the soundbar, but it's still quite a bit.
Are you saying that the Sonos is using the 5 GHz wireless band? It only uses 2.4 GHz as far as I know.
It is using 5 Ghz for the speakers bonded in 5.1 home theatre.
Ryan, Netflix supports Dolby Atmos.
Hi Gwoodster,
Here's some details we've shared around Dolby and our decision around it.
Dolby Atmos is an attempt by Dolby to standardize cinema sound from production to theater exhibition to in-home distribution. More than just a codec, Atmos is an authoring language for cinema sound. In theory, Atmos allows a sound designer to specify the location of a specific sound in a 360 degree sphere and then render that sound ‘accurately’ whether a given room has 1 speaker or 64. You can think of Atmos like a ‘vector’ graphic format such as EPS which is a series of instructions for how to render an image vs classic Dolby Digital which is more like a GIF.
In the home context, Atmos is often described as a way to create a sphere of sound where certain sound effects appear to be located above the listeners. However, ‘ceiling sound’ is only one aspect of the Atmos format.
At Sonos, we are intrigued by the future applications of Atmos in the home context, however like most new codecs, Atmos is only as good as the content which is encoded and mastered for the format. Today, native Atmos content is very limited. Like DTS, most Atmos content is found on Blue-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray physicals discs. Only a limited amount of streaming content from VUDU uses Atmos. As Sonos is focused on modern listeners who predominantly steam, we have decided not to support Atmos at this time. We will continue to monitor the state of home entertainment to determine if Atmos is a feature that will improve the experience for the majority of our owners.
Here's some details we've shared around Dolby and our decision around it.
Dolby Atmos is an attempt by Dolby to standardize cinema sound from production to theater exhibition to in-home distribution. More than just a codec, Atmos is an authoring language for cinema sound. In theory, Atmos allows a sound designer to specify the location of a specific sound in a 360 degree sphere and then render that sound ‘accurately’ whether a given room has 1 speaker or 64. You can think of Atmos like a ‘vector’ graphic format such as EPS which is a series of instructions for how to render an image vs classic Dolby Digital which is more like a GIF.
In the home context, Atmos is often described as a way to create a sphere of sound where certain sound effects appear to be located above the listeners. However, ‘ceiling sound’ is only one aspect of the Atmos format.
At Sonos, we are intrigued by the future applications of Atmos in the home context, however like most new codecs, Atmos is only as good as the content which is encoded and mastered for the format. Today, native Atmos content is very limited. Like DTS, most Atmos content is found on Blue-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray physicals discs. Only a limited amount of streaming content from VUDU uses Atmos. As Sonos is focused on modern listeners who predominantly steam, we have decided not to support Atmos at this time. We will continue to monitor the state of home entertainment to determine if Atmos is a feature that will improve the experience for the majority of our owners.
Atmos doesn't even make sense in a soundbar, let alone a cheaper one like the beam. The ones that remotely have decent quality are quite expensive and are still not true Atmos. If one really wants that experience they're better off with a receiver based system
Userlevel 7
+22
I don't think playbar is the place to have Dolby Atmos. I would still like to see a SUPERConnect. That allows full multiroom distribution of channels to any combination of Sonos speakers. And introduce a Play-A Atmos speaker.
I still like the idea of a SUPERConnect box that is almost like an old receiver in bringing in all your sources then having the ability to distribute those sources across your Sonos network.
I still like the idea of a SUPERConnect box that is almost like an old receiver in bringing in all your sources then having the ability to distribute those sources across your Sonos network.
Methinks the soundbox won't turn out to be a wireless one. Dolby Atmos & Wireless = Wishful thinking.
https://arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/2017/07/sky-soundbox/
Oops... :8
Atmos supports 7.1.4 speakers. That's 7 regular speakers, 1 subwoofer, and 4 in ceiling or upward firing speakers, according to Dolby's website. How much bandwidth across wifi would all of that take? i.e. I'm not convinced it's only an issue with optical cabling, although I do think it's also part of that. But with so many additional speakers, I wonder how much space their is in the bandwidth. Right now, Sonos deals with basically 3 speakers in their 5.1 system in terms of wifi, the two surrounds, and the SUB. The Center, Right, and Left are all inside the same box, and consequently not streamed on the 5Ghz that is used.
I'd love to have an engineer weigh in on how much bandwidth there is available, and how much a fully saturated 7.1.4 sound system would take.
I think at the end of the day, Sonos will have to go away from the optical connection, and provide perhaps HDMI connectors. The problem is from a marketing standpoint, where it makes the system that much more complex for the "average" user, while making the advanced users more happy. And then there will be the inevitable complainers that they don't offer more than X inputs...but I digress 🙂
I'd love to have an engineer weigh in on how much bandwidth there is available, and how much a fully saturated 7.1.4 sound system would take.
I think at the end of the day, Sonos will have to go away from the optical connection, and provide perhaps HDMI connectors. The problem is from a marketing standpoint, where it makes the system that much more complex for the "average" user, while making the advanced users more happy. And then there will be the inevitable complainers that they don't offer more than X inputs...but I digress 🙂
I'd be surprised if it were on their roadmap, given the potential licensing issues, much less backwards compatibility problems. If, and it would be a pretty outside chance, that they were to do something, I'd assume it would be in a new speaker, and not a simple add-on.
I'm seeking for a Sonos Playbar (not the Playbase) including BOTH DTSX and Dolby Atmos (along with Sub & a pair of Play3), free of issues or bugs, and at a reasonable price. I'm from a country where there is no outlet of SONOS, nonetheless I'm eagerly waiting for such an exotic sound system (even from a third party).
NB. Playbar of length not greater than 43" is desirable since the standard size of the present day 4K HDR TV starts from 43" & most suitable for a compact living room)
In my view, the aforementioned system must defeat all the available atmos soundbar e.g., sony st5000, samsung kw950 or lgsj9.
NB. Playbar of length not greater than 43" is desirable since the standard size of the present day 4K HDR TV starts from 43" & most suitable for a compact living room)
In my view, the aforementioned system must defeat all the available atmos soundbar e.g., sony st5000, samsung kw950 or lgsj9.
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