The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

K

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

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570 replies

J
Userlevel 6
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Also, there is one piece of info I can share for those who are looking to lock down their systems now and it concerns the Sonos IOS app and automatic updates raised by pwt

There is a method to stop the IOS Sonos app from updating whilst allowing all other apps to auto update as usual. It was discovered by patmill and is buried deep in the CR100 thread so I shall paraphrase it below:

Tryng to disable the Sonos iOS app from updating wasn't working for me.

Disabling background updates / cellular / etc didn't work, as I kept getting an update pushed to it.

Ultimately what I found that seems to be working is to do the following:

Use iMazing to get the Sonos app .ipa file from your device. Make a copy of it (just in case) and rename it to .zip 

Open up the zip file, and remove the iTunesMetadata.plist file and the META-INF folder (you should be left with only a folder called Payload, and an artwork file)

Rename the zip file back to an .ipa file

Using iMazing, remove the original Sonos app from your device and upload the modified .ipa file

Initially, it seems fiddly but if you are going through the lockdown procedures posted by footsore then you will already have done much of this.

This trick works a treat!

J
Userlevel 4
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  AFAICT from reviews, everyone else’s whole house audio solutions are far inferior to Sonos, either due to controller issues, lack of sync or network stability.

I have a system running at the moment with a Sonos Beam, 2 chromecasts (2 of which are connected to BT transmitters), a Google Nest Hub, a logitech internet radio and a Roberts S1 speaker.  All playing different streams without any issues - all controllable from an android app, a dedicated controller remote, and a linux PC web-browser (and by voice with Alexa deviices - including the Fire TV - when required). 

Impossible on the clunky sonos system now or in the future.

Sounds too good to be true. What's the catch with this system?

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

 

But I’m sure that if someone made such a box that was maintained by an open source community, that could stream from all the well known music services and then present itself to Sonos as a music source, people would buy in to that.

 

It already exists (runs on Pi’s inluding the 20 usd zero w, and Windows, Linux, Mac).  Software cost 0.  Open source and community support.

Streams  Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz, Napster, Tidal, Pandora, Pocketcasts, Radio Paradise, Tunein 

No limit on local library size.

Controllers via web browsers, apps for android, Mac,  You control update schedule.

J
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

 

But I’m sure that if someone made such a box that was maintained by an open source community, that could stream from all the well known music services and then present itself to Sonos as a music source, people would buy in to that.

 

It already exists (runs on Pi’s inluding the 20 usd zero w, and Windows, Linux, Mac).  Software cost 0.  Open source and community support.

Streams  Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz, Napster, Tidal, Pandora, Pocketcasts, Radio Paradise, Tunein 

No limit on local library size.

Controllers via web browsers, apps for android, Mac,  You control update schedule.

Would that be the LMS solution that you mention? If so, is there a definitive article you can reference somewhere or is it a Google job?

Takes me back - rather gutted that only a few months ago I sold a couple of SliMP3 units on ebay…..

Cheers

chickentender

Put simply. All of the past week’s realizations have further convinced me that a networked distributed computing model is inferior for home audio application. A server/thin-client model is far more sustainable.

C
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  AFAICT from reviews, everyone else’s whole house audio solutions are far inferior to Sonos, either due to controller issues, lack of sync or network stability.

I have a system running at the moment with a Sonos Beam, 2 chromecasts (2 of which are connected to BT transmitters), a Google Nest Hub, a logitech internet radio and a Roberts S1 speaker.  All playing different streams without any issues - all controllable from an android app, a dedicated controller remote, and a linux PC web-browser (and by voice with Alexa deviices - including the Fire TV - when required). 

Impossible on the clunky sonos system now or in the future.

Sounds too good to be true. What's the catch with this system?

In my experience, very little - syncro is available, but I don’t use it, so I can’t comment.

The major stumbling block is that the initial setup of the software can be fiddly (depending on the base server machine) - but the user community is very helpful.   

It doesn’t replace your existing sonos setup - it just complements it.  You can continue using your sonos setup as before.

R

Hi guys, all very interesting reading, and glad to see people working on ideas, which will probably work for now, based on the assumed position of Sonos. What we need is a roadmap though, not just point solutions based on the here and now. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

K

@johngolfuk as to the pi beta test you refer to it may have been @pwt.

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

 

But I’m sure that if someone made such a box that was maintained by an open source community, that could stream from all the well known music services and then present itself to Sonos as a music source, people would buy in to that.

 

It already exists (runs on Pi’s inluding the 20 usd zero w, and Windows, Linux, Mac).  Software cost 0.  Open source and community support.

Streams  Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz, Napster, Tidal, Pandora, Pocketcasts, Radio Paradise, Tunein 

No limit on local library size.

Controllers via web browsers, apps for android, Mac,  You control update schedule.

Would that be the LMS solution that you mention? If so, is there a definitive article you can reference somewhere or is it a Google job?

Takes me back - rather gutted that only a few months ago I sold a couple of SliMP3 units on ebay…..

Cheers

Yes.  I’m not aware of any specific guides, I’m afraid.  Look for the slimdevices forum.  Setting up the server software is fairly straightforward for Windows and MasOS.  Using a Pi is a bit more complicated as you need to choose between 3 options - Picoreplayer, Max2Play, or install the distro on Raspian (most complex).   Once you have LMS running then you need to investigate how to install the upnp/dlna bridge plugin on LMS.   Some extensive reading probably pays off. 

K

. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

That is an excellent point! I have some thoughts, but this is definitely one for @Ryan S to answer . Whose nerves must be close to getting shot...Sonos needs to think of spelling him every few days for r&r before he is told, as Henry V told his soldiers at Agincourt...once more into the breach my friend...if he is to last even till just May:-)

Ryan S
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. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

That is an excellent point! I have some thoughts, but this is definitely one for @Ryan S to answer . Whose nerves must be close to getting shot...Sonos needs to think of spelling him every few days for r&r before he is told, as Henry V told his soldiers at Agincourt...once more into the breach my friend...if he is to last even till just May:-)

It’s a great question, but I can’t answer it. We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before we start worrying about unannounced things. If you haven’t heard it yet @RedSonos, we are committed to supporting Sonos speakers with software updates for at least five years after we’ve stopped selling them. We’ve got a track record of much longer, as all of the devices going into legacy now were designed at least a decade ago and some of them we stopped selling around 10 years ago. They aren’t getting moved to legacy because they’re old, it’s because their hardware can't keep up with the software demands of the future, all of the modern devices are quite capable of handling those needs. 

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
K

And I have been waiting to use this word that the military guys often use: What a cluster.…

Insert appropriate four letter word there. Hint: it isn't love.

R

. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

That is an excellent point! I have some thoughts, but this is definitely one for @Ryan S to answer . Whose nerves must be close to getting shot...Sonos needs to think of spelling him every few days for r&r before he is told, as Henry V told his soldiers at Agincourt...once more into the breach my friend...if he is to last even till just May:-)

It’s a great question, but I can’t answer it. We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before we start worrying about unannounced things. If you haven’t heard it yet @RedSonos, we are committed to supporting Sonos speakers with software updates for at least five years after we’ve stopped selling them. We’ve got a track record of much longer, as all of the devices going into legacy now were designed at least a decade ago and some of them we stopped selling around 10 years ago. They aren’t getting moved to legacy because they’re old, it’s because their hardware can't keep up with the software demands of the future, all of the modern devices are quite capable of handling those needs. 

Whilst I support the efforts to concentrate on May, in my experience (I'm an IT infrastructure architect) many projects deal with the here and now without considering the implications of these decisions on future iterations. In some cases this means that they paint themselves into a corner, so a long term objective/viewpoint is always something which should be taken into account to ensure there can be a future. I appreciate Sonos's commitment to supporting products for a minimum of 5 years, but my gateway into Sonos was some second hand kit from a friend, so I could become unsupported in less than 5 years. Whilst I know that isn't Sonos's intention today, who knows what hardware requirements will be required to support services in 4 years time, so all I ask that there will be the option to support 2 iterations of legacy devices without huge compromises having to be made

J
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

 

But I’m sure that if someone made such a box that was maintained by an open source community, that could stream from all the well known music services and then present itself to Sonos as a music source, people would buy in to that.

 

It already exists (runs on Pi’s inluding the 20 usd zero w, and Windows, Linux, Mac).  Software cost 0.  Open source and community support.

Streams  Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz, Napster, Tidal, Pandora, Pocketcasts, Radio Paradise, Tunein 

No limit on local library size.

Controllers via web browsers, apps for android, Mac,  You control update schedule.

Would that be the LMS solution that you mention? If so, is there a definitive article you can reference somewhere or is it a Google job?

Takes me back - rather gutted that only a few months ago I sold a couple of SliMP3 units on ebay…..

Cheers

Yes.  I’m not aware of any specific guides, I’m afraid.  Look for the slimdevices forum.  Setting up the server software is fairly straightforward for Windows and MasOS.  Using a Pi is a bit more complicated as you need to choose between 3 options - Picoreplayer, Max2Play, or install the distro on Raspian (most complex).   Once you have LMS running then you need to investigate how to install the upnp/dlna bridge plugin on LMS.   Some extensive reading probably pays off. 

Extensive reading I can manage, I just need pointing in the right direction so thanks for the info, much appreciated.

For now, of course, I’m not impacted but it would be nice to have all options available if Sonos falls over on its promise or Napster etc. change anything - I am firmly in the “not wanting to throw away perfectly working equipment” camp and most of my stuff (barring the P:1s) is knocking on for 15 years old….

I happen to have a PI W floating around - since it was only £15 I bought one out of curiosity - amazing what they can squeeze out of such a tiny PCB. But aside from the basic load (I recall it was Raspian as it goes), I never really got to grips with it.

Windows might be the better option for me, after all I have my ripped CDs stored on a hard drive fitted to a PC that is always on.

Anyways, as time permits, I’ll have a play around and report back with anything interesting.

Cheers

J

 

K

First, the terms “geek” and “non geek” words are used with no connotations of disrespect to either.

That said, this thread has gone long enough to need this post for the benefit of non geeks like me that are still with us:

It is interesting to see how many Sonos geeks this thread has drawn and what feels like an apocalypse to us non geeks, is a “isn't this fun, and I told you so” moment to them, with so many geeky approaches that are fascinating, bubbling to the surface. Which is fine, of course, that is the purpose of the thread; what is over the top for me, may be pragmatic for some one else.

But for people at a non geek level or inclination, some reminders to interject as a break in a long thread that looks to have legs:

  1. There is absolutely no need to do anything at this time. Wait till May, for Sonos to announce all it says it will - that will provide a better base from which to move forward.
  2. For those subscribing to the ethos suggested by the opening post and the thread title, adopting the legacy system approach, that will become clearer in May, is the way forward.
  3. Be very careful before opting for the other approach of a split system. Running such has a risk of being found to be tiresome in use, while also running a risk of not being able to come back to a single legacy system.
  4. Even if the legacy system option brings trouble for streaming services working with your kit at any time after May, as long as you retain the legacy kit with line in jacks that you have today, there is a non geeky solution as simple as wiring something like an Echo Dot, or similar made by someone else, to these jacks; all that will need is simple stereo cable/s. 
  5. Music play from your local NAS will continue to work as long as legacy hardware works. Sonos has said this clearly more than once in the last few days. It will work even if the NAS or router dies and has to be replaced before any legacy hardware suffers a failure - @Ryan S for reconfirmation please.
  6. While I detest the Trade up program for creating environmental damage by every unit sent to a landfill that is far in excess of the 30% discount it delivers as mere money, that’s just me. If you still think it makes sense to you, Sonos has said that it has no end date. Having said that, I can see a conflict there - Sonos may come under environmental lobby pressures, or those arising from any corporate conscience it may have, to withdraw or amend that program to be a more environmentally responsible one, but that is speculation that no one can or should undertake to do on your behalf. And for all you know this change may also not leave you worse of than you are now - something that achieves that would be the best kind of change to the program. 
  7. Before buying any more smart audio kit henceforth, be it from Sonos, or from anyone else, do research/due diligence adopting the “Once bitten, twice shy” thinking.

If I am sent a private message of any further items that I could have missed, between Ryan and I, we can incorporate them in this post to leave all such advice in one post - if the message comes to me while the edit function is still available to me, I can do this on my own.

J
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@johngolfuk as to the pi beta test you refer to it may have been @pwt.

Thanks Kumar, I’ll look it up.

Cheers

J

J
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Just a quick note on future NAS failures.

As a PC user and a tight Yorkshire man, all my kit as required is sourced from eBay.

It is very easy to pick up a 2nd user desktop PC, complete with a decent sized HD and Windows OS for around £40 - maybe less.

Stick all your tracks on to the HDD, consign the PC to the attic / cellar / back room / whatever, point Sonos to your track folder and let that be your NAS

K

And I have been waiting to use this word that the military guys often use: What a cluster.…

Insert appropriate four letter word there. Hint: it isn't love.

To clarify, since the edit thing is gone: the quoted was my immediate response on reading the horrifying scenario that @RedSonos painted a few posts preceding. And the prompt - kudos again for that - Ryan response only left me thinking how much of a furore that will erupt as the roll out starts; for somewhat different reasons, but a furore even so. This from the fact that all posters here or in other online places are a small fraction of the total installed base that is still working. All those folk are going to discover all of this in May and will have to take implementation actions via complex workflows? The mind boggles at the thought. And to start, Sonos will need to clone Ryan a hundred times over to man all the touch points.

J
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I happen to have a PI W floating around - since it was only £15 I bought one out of curiosity - amazing what they can squeeze out of such a tiny PCB. But aside from the basic load (I recall it was Raspian as it goes), I never really got to grips with it.

 

I have an RPI i think I will repurpose to try out one of these suggestions. Will report back CC @castalla

C
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@johngolfuk

Windows should be okay - first step is basic install

@Johnas 

Check out slimdevices forum - I have a brief posting there

R
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@Ryan S you have quoted variations of  “We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before….” a number of times now. It looks like that there may quite a large amount of information released in May (and hopefully some significant changes to the proposed course of action :relaxed: ) plus new releases of software.

I am concerned that there may be a very limited amount of time to decide upon a pragmatic way forward before software is released that accidentally and Irrevocably changes ones environment. By accidentally I mean scenarios such as friends or family coming round with the latest version of the app (maybe they only have modern kit) on their phone and (helpfully) forcing an update of the system. Can Sonos confirm that customers will have time to decide what to do and that there will be safeguards to prevent an accidental action or methods that enable customers to switch between the options?

 

T
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@User533936 : your lateral thinking bit around the Chromecast video puck may not be such a good idea; a pitfall I can see just now is making sure that the jacks suit this trick with different jacks with different black insulator rings that are there to separate the channels. Or to not separate this, for mono jacks. I would not do this in a hurry and instead would wire a stereo cable to the kind of splitter in the @chickentender posted picture using appropriate jacks at the Sonos end suited to the nature of line in jack/s of the 5 or the Connect/Connect Amp, as the case may be. And let the 5 pair stereo thing be done by Sonos software; with the Connect/Connect Amp your lateral thinking isn't needed anyway.

And to answer your question as well as for @edamame about why Sonos can’t - won’t, more accurately - make such a device - what's to stop anyone from buying a bunch of them for a couple of hundred bucks, wiring them to third party speakers, and getting all the multi room Sonos features while blowing away the Sonos top line? IMO, that is a legitimate reason for them to not do this. The same reason why they will never introduce a cheap Port even if the costs justify a low price. What they should be doing - and I have suggested this to them as have some others - is to make the cheap device, but rig it to work only with Sonos “dumb” speakers, connected to each other via ethernet cable and not audio cables. But that is to cope with future Brexits more elegantly, doesn’t help this one.

On the latter paragraph, that’s what I was thinking. Sonos has to do the device.  Use their protocols, preserve hardware, honor customers and their investments, enable modularity, speculate a patent in there too. At a half the cost of a Sonos One, I’m just (perhaps naively) IN. SOLD!  Such a device may even save older Sonos Ones.

Profound betrayal aside and personally, we love the Sonos and it’s features. There are a bunch of genius if not practical work-arounds here (THANKS to all lateral thinkers here and otherwise), but it all may be a bit kludgy.  Love the nerdy challenge, but ya know, this stuff is making me weary.  Sonos, you can and should step up.

On the free cash flow comment, suggest you talk to Boeing about their borrowing to bridge 737Max situation. YIKES!

 

W
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@Ryan Syou have quoted variations of  “We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before….” a number of times now. It looks like that there may quite a large amount of information released in May (and hopefully some significant changes to the proposed course of action :relaxed: ) plus new releases of software.

I am concerned that there may be a very limited amount of time to decide upon a pragmatic way forward before software is released that accidentally and Irrevocably changes ones environment. By accidentally I mean scenarios such as friends or family coming round with the latest version of the app (maybe they only have modern kit) on their phone and (helpfully) forcing an update of the system. Can Sonos confirm that customers will have time to decide what to do and that there will be safeguards to prevent an accidental action or methods that enable customers to switch between the options?

 


In so many different variations, this. @Ryan S You keep suggesting that all important details will come in May -- not earlier? Could you confirm that Sonos does not anticipate being able to provide further details on the Legacy option in the near-term?

Ryan S
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@Ryan Syou have quoted variations of  “We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before….” a number of times now. It looks like that there may quite a large amount of information released in May (and hopefully some significant changes to the proposed course of action :relaxed: ) plus new releases of software.

I am concerned that there may be a very limited amount of time to decide upon a pragmatic way forward before software is released that accidentally and Irrevocably changes ones environment. By accidentally I mean scenarios such as friends or family coming round with the latest version of the app (maybe they only have modern kit) on their phone and (helpfully) forcing an update of the system. Can Sonos confirm that customers will have time to decide what to do and that there will be safeguards to prevent an accidental action or methods that enable customers to switch between the options?

 


In so many different variations, this. @Ryan S You keep suggesting that all important details will come in May -- not earlier? Could you confirm that Sonos does not anticipate being able to provide further details on the Legacy option in the near-term?

At best, I can confirm that’s currently the plan I have to share. But if information does become available sooner, I’ll be sure to let you all know.

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
K

 

On the free cash flow comment, suggest you talk to Boeing about their borrowing to bridge 737Max situation. YIKES!

 

That reference is actually a good way for all of us to remember to see things in perspective; no matter what happens, this isn't life and death for users. 

As to Boeing though, their CEO, Calhoun is getting hammered on social media as he continues to find more and more ways to put his foot in his mouth. 

And although they may need to borrow to overcome the present crisis, they will find lenders that lend at reasonable rates, as long there is belief in the future of Boeing and its ability to generate future cash flows to pay back all the borrowing and interest. Boeing is very interesting actually - every time they get into a new plane build they have to bet the entire company on its success. I know they did that for the 747, and the 777. They must have had to do that earlier as well. In comparison, Sonos gambles are trivial.

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