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SAVE THE CR100



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Userlevel 7
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Slightly off-topic, but since CR100 alternatives are being discussed here as well as elsewhere, the Sevenhugs smart remote looks interesting: https://sevenhugs.com. They show Sonos devices on their web site and state (in the FAQs) that they are supported. It's not clear whether this includes - or will include in future - all the abilities of the CR100, in particular music selection and grouping. Not cheap, by any means. I wouldn't want to put it in a bathroom, either...

Looks gorgeous... I think I actually came across that about a year or so ago... Am intrigued to know just how it "knows" what it's pointing at, and how accurate that is, given than several bit of kit may be in very close proximity...

As you say though, a tad dear - although not as expensive as the CR100s were back in the day...
Userlevel 7
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Now there's a thought. I've got a useless Sanus TV stand in the garage that I bought with my Playbase. My Sony TV seems to be one of the only designs that can't use it. But on the positive side, when my previously mentioned wife threw the remote and broke it (in one of her firestorms) I got an almost identical and inexpensive replacement from eSpares. £15 iirc.

TJRL - Had to look up SP100s and realised I have 2 pairs. Are your 5 pairs or has there been a casualty like we're prone to having in our house nearly monthly, well periodically...?:D

No SP100 casualties, but no children in the house either!!
Userlevel 6
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All, here's a covering letter update - for those who missed the original, here's a link to it to save wasting screen space:

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/save-the-cr100-6800510/index83.html#post16219811

Thanks to comments from others on here, I've changed this bit:

As and when we install this legacy software, we have no problem with accepting terms and conditions exonerating Sonos from any battery or security issues as well as technical support.

to this:

As and when we install this legacy software, we do not expect any form of technical support from Sonos.

The list remains unchanged and can be found here:

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/save-the-cr100-6800510/index83.html#post16219809

Ken, I respect your input and comments on this matter but, at this time, you are the only one here who has advocated a different approach.

Unless I get an overwhelming response (from supporters not flamers) to say "don't do it" then I will send the letter tomorrow as planned.
Slightly off-topic, but since CR100 alternatives are being discussed here as well as elsewhere, the Sevenhugs smart remote looks interesting: https://sevenhugs.com. They show Sonos devices on their web site and state (in the FAQs) that they are supported. It's not clear whether this includes - or will include in future - all the abilities of the CR100, in particular music selection and grouping. Not cheap, by any means. I wouldn't want to put it in a bathroom, either...

Looks gorgeous... I think I actually came across that about a year or so ago... Am intrigued to know just how it "knows" what it's pointing at, and how accurate that is, given than several bit of kit may be in very close proximity...

As you say though, a tad dear - although not as expensive as the CR100s were back in the day...


Unfortunately it is touchscreen not tactile so a non-starter here.
Userlevel 7
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Please, please. I’m not here to go up against anyone. I do have some sympathy in some areas. I’m just saying Sonos seem to have made their position very clear. They intend to make the CR100 device obsolete in April.

I just cannot see Sonos changing their mind on that decision, particularly for the reasons they have already publicly announced that they perceive the CR100 (due to its ageing internally-sealed batteries and inner workings) may become unsafe and present a fire-risk in the future. Plus I’m reasonably sure many customers have already now accepted the compensation offered and have disposed of their CR100 controllers and cradles.

It may not be so important as to whether the Sonos perceived future fire risk is proven, it is a case that their decision has been made to reduce/remove the risk away from their customers, for which they have considered the matter with care and offered a certain amount of compensation to the affected users.

I just simply cannot see Sonos now deciding to switch away from that original plan, no matter how sizeable the backlash. Things have already travelled too far along the track to do a company U-Turn now. The only thing I can see changing is the amount of compensation, but I think that will be based on what they consider to be fair and reasonable.

In my case, for my CR100 controller and it’s circumstance, I considered that the compensation was fair and reasonable and I’m quite sure many others may have agreed with me and accepted the original Sonos offer.

It’s now a case that this community thread has some core members who want to achieve one of the following outcomes...

1. Retain their CR100 Controller with official backing from Sonos
2. Retain their CR100 Controller with no official backing and go it alone with the perceived risks that are involved.
3. Seek a different type/level of individual compensation.


I personally do not think that item 1 above will ever become achievable, for the reasons I have repeatedly stated in my recent posts and above.

I think item 2 is achievable, but it is also a bit of a nightmare to achieve in the long term and it carries some future risks, no least, it could bring harm to others.
I would never support this course of action in item 2 and I am certain no responsible company, or its CEO would support it either. Knowing that some things do exist in the real world is one thing, but providing support for it, is an entirely different matter. By providing support or encouraging others to go down this path, I think a user is opening themselves up to much greater (legal and moral) risks.

Item 3 is the only area that I personally do support and have some sympathy for. There is a possibility that it is achievable for some remainers here and I still think it is the most likely chosen course to succeed. That is why I still strongly recommend it as being the main proposal for johngolfs letter to the Sonos CEO.

Item 3 though, does come with a type of in-built warning, in that sometimes more questions may often be asked of the end individual user and that may result in the amount of compensation being reduced, rather than being increased. It is though, something that truly needs to be determined on a case by case basis.

I suppose one 'very crude' example of a compensation reduction, is where a user has perhaps recently bought a single preloved CR100 Controller with a useless battery, via eBay, for a small amount of its original cost and the battery has been replaced, with the controller usage also being very minimal on their Sonos account, compared to other Controllers available in the household that connect to the account maybe on a more-frequent basis.

I’m sure there are some far better compensation-reduction examples available, whereby the offer may also go down, rather than up, but I’m sure you get the drift from my rather crude attempt.

Anyhow, I still think that the course highlighted in item 3 above, is the most likely outcome for the few that are left here after the April switch off.


Ken without wanting to appear rude.

If the Sonos CEO is aware that this product is not safe or may not be safe under certain circumstances then he is obliged to issue a recall under UK and EU law. Manufacturers cannot sell unsafe products, and there is no timeouts on safety. As has been repeatedly pointed out Sonos have a legal team, and as has also been pointed out they would never ever get it wrong as companies don't do that. You are seemingly suggesting that the Sonos CEO would deliberately flout the laws, because he would have been correctly advised by the legal team, and not issue a recall for a dangerous product.

For your scenario 1 to occur the Sonos CEO must be aware the product does not require a recall and is therefore safe.

For your scenario 2 to occur you seem to suggest there is a legal loophole around the UK Product Safety Legislation that allows manufacturers to sell unsafe products and push the risk onto the consumer.


I would never support this course of action in item 2 and I am certain no responsible company, or its CEO would support it either. Knowing that some things do exist in the real world is one thing, but providing support for it, is an entirely different matter. By providing support or encouraging others to go down this path, I think a user is opening themselves up to much greater (legal and moral) risks.


Whilst you may think this would never ever happen I have been offered the support of a Sonos Engineer to lock down my system to enable the continued usage of the CR100. Sonos are openly supporting ongoing usage of the CR100 as an option and have included this as an option on this thread. Do you want to review your thoughts on the actuality of the 'Perceived Safety Issue'..

What you repeatedly come back to is your Scenario 3, increased compensation, compensation you perceive may be obtainable for a device you don't use. That would seem a little off colour to me.


Lets look at the facts:

Sonos have said there is a 'perceived risk'
Sonos have not issued a product recall - a mandatory requirement for a dangerous product.
In UK law 'A dangerous product is a product that is not a safe product'
Sonos are openly supporting the ongoing usage of the CR100. (which no CEO would do it if was dangerous - you said this)

QED: There is no safety issue - it was and is just FUD.

Look at the language 'ageing components', it might break - yeah it might. But it hasn't.


Your Sony remote
Did you ask Sony for a replacement remote control for your TV. It is likely they could have provided a model specific remote control, a generic Sony remote control, or as a last resort a One4All style device. You may have had to pay more than you could purchase a one4all remote for - but they would have provided one. Personally I have been through this route for my Mum - she wanted one the same as she knew how it worked, they provided one, it cost more than a One4All but I didn't have to retrain my Mum.

Forced Obsolescence
You think forcing obsolescence on the grounds of safety is a good idea. That would have seen 37 million cars rendered obsolete in the Takata airbag recall. Would this have a been a good forced obsolescence, do you think the owners of those cars would have been happy. And note the first recalls started in 2008 (Honda) for cars produced in 2001 onwards and is still ongoing with recalls by other manufacturers. This far exceeds the timeframes for Sonos products.


Safety First, Environment Second.

Dave
Userlevel 7
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Hi I'm trying to lock down my system and my firewall can block "update.sonos.com" but I also trying to block ALL updates from iTunes APPstore with "appldnld.apple.com" and "mesu.apple.com" but it doesn't work. If I block "apple.com" then it blocks the update but then I cant look at my appleTV. Does anybody know what sites to block ? there is 94 sites with xxx.apple.com and its hard to know what they do.Another approach is to disable automatic updates in iOS from Settings >> iTunes & App Stores. In the Automatic Downloads section, turn off Updates. This will force you to explicitly open the App Store to manually update any application that has a new version, however.And you must do this for every iOS device in your household with the Sonos app.

If it was that easy. I have done want you have written.BUT children and guest can trigger the update. AND a friend who already has upgraded their Sonos can by misstake upgrade my units when visiting. It has already happen a year ago.


Amgwanagitbuti

in my testing if you lock down your network and a friend comes around with an updated smartphone or device they will NOT be able to update your players as each player and Sonos device reaches out to the update.sonos.com site and downloads the code itself, it does NOT get pushed by the device your friend brings onto the property.

this was a concern of mine as well, and after the testing I did I realized how it worked.

it will mean any outside/upgraded device will NOT be able to control your sonos however.
and if you follow the directions on how to backup your devices (or retain the Android App) you will be able to manually install the older version to match your system,

hope this helps.
Userlevel 4
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SAD SAD DAY HERE - our CR100 won't connect to our system any more.

Yesterday upgraded everything except a couple of PC controllers to 8.4 because of a couple of units on older firmware. Uploaded last two pc controllers today (ran out of time yesterday)

Our system locked up completely today - probably a network problem or something, not sure - spent an afternoon trying to get system going again. Nothing would show up. Eventually had to turn everything off and then add each back one by one. Downloaded latest Pc app from Sonos and updated PCs. Unfortunately the CR100 was very slow then completely locked up, havent seen that before. Gave it an hour to recover - it didnt, so reset it and tried to re-add to system but just get the message:-

"Connecting. Please wait... The controller was unable to connect to a Sonos component. Please try again. (1)"

Tried again but just get same message. I assume that this is a result of the recent update 8.4. I've contacted suppport, but it will take them time to get back to me. The probable outcome is that we won't even be able to enjoy the last few days of our CR100 before the April deadline, and probably no chance to ring-fence it for a while.

NO HAPPY BUNNIES HERE - SAD DAD DAY!
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Bye the way - blacklisting "update.sonos.com" in parental controls alone doesn't stop updates, it went to 8.4 yesterday when manually upgraded without any problems.
Userlevel 7
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All, here's a covering letter update - for those who missed the original, here's a link to it to save wasting screen space:

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/save-the-cr100-6800510/index83.html#post16219811

Thanks to comments from others on here, I've changed this bit:

As and when we install this legacy software, we have no problem with accepting terms and conditions exonerating Sonos from any battery or security issues as well as technical support.

to this:

As and when we install this legacy software, we do not expect any form of technical support from Sonos.

The list remains unchanged and can be found here:

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/save-the-cr100-6800510/index83.html#post16219809

Ken, I respect your input and comments on this matter but, at this time, you are the only one here who has advocated a different approach.

Unless I get an overwhelming response (from supporters not flamers) to say "don't do it" then I will send the letter tomorrow as planned.


John,
I know of no legislation that allows a manufacturer to push safety issues onto the consumer. We cannot sign for this liability. The liability for safety remains with Sonos.

If we tamper with the device (a battery change would do it) then the risk for failures is potentially no longer Sonos's responsibility. If the future battery failed it would be with the new manufacturer. If the new battery caused the Sonos unit to explode it might be tough luck unless the battery provided was specifically stated as suitable for Sonos, was implied in its T&Cs, and proven to be installed in line with manufacturers instructions. and wasn't bough off a sole trader on eBay based in China. In which case the battery supplier is liable.

If the Sonos unit failed and it could be proven not to be related to the battery (pretty tough after the fire), then it may still be possible that Sonos would be liable but not sure what a capacitor and a fuse can do on their own. And this would be pretty unlikely to succeed..

Dave
Userlevel 7
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Bye the way - blacklisting "update.sonos.com" in parental controls alone doesn't stop updates, it went to 8.4 yesterday when manually upgraded without any problems.

John,
call Sonos support to get your CR100 back on the 8.4 system.
May need to find another router/firewall to allow filtering on the domain and port 4444.
best test it using a connected PC and trying to "check for updates" if you get an error it cannot connect you have blocked the site.
Userlevel 7
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Another address to Block.

for those looking to lock down their systems I have come to realize we may also be better protected to add another web address to the block list.

update-firmware.sonos.com

This is within the logs in the firmware and appears to not have been posted on the Sonos Website.
I can advise this is within the URL the ZP100 I was playing with reports it was connecting to.
I only recognized this yesterday and cannot comment if this is new or now, but I would add it to the blocked sites.

For me, and I have said this many times, the real issue is the Forced Obsolescence, I am an adult and can make my own decisions on when I "MUST" move on to something new. I am also very capable of replacing batteries in a device with 6 screws on the case. (as is anyone else out there)
Allowing any company to take any device such as this and use the excuses they have shoved down our throats as a smokescreen is just plain wrong.

I am certain there are a number of reasons why they are making changes to the Sonos Eco-System which is forcing the CR100 to its death, they are not actually leveling with their owners and would have really come out a winner if they created a suitable replacement and then enticed us to toss the CR100 in the bin, but they did not.

So, in the absence of a suitable option, then CHOICE to stay at a given operable level should be provided.
get rid of that crappy "this CR100 is about to die" warning and replace it with a "Sonos Recommends this CR100 be put to death" disclaimer if you must (as a CYA thing) but give us choice.
Userlevel 6
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I would assume you know that Amazon integration only works on Amazon audio sources not local or Sonos sources. But, yes your right the Alexa integration is no replacement for any controller.

Chris, has that been tested? I was looking at a Fire tablet as possible future replacement when/if my CR100s die a natural electronic death. If the Fire can't access my music library or any other service besides Amazon Music, it's kind of worthless. I looked at the iPort xPress button control Sonos sells, but that looks like it depends on a app you have to have loaded and has many limitations. We use our 3 CR100 daily! It's an absolute keystone to the entire 16 component system and frankly no one in my household likes the iOS APP (although we do use the PC App because we're so used to it.
Voice control is right out! 😉
johngolfuk,

I appreciate that my own personal viewpoint on your letter text was the only one that may have had a different approach to yours, or any of the other members here and I do appreciate your own stance with it.

I do fully understand the outcome you are hoping to achieve. All I can say is thank you very much for reading my posts in detail and considering the points that I raised.

I do wish you luck with the letter and any response that you may receive in due course from the CEO, or his representative. I’m not sure though if a reply will be forthcoming before, or after the April deadline. We shall have to wait and see.

F00tS0re,

In a different vein, but also in a very polite manner, I’m not so sure you may have entirely grasped a few of the things I was saying, or was attempting to get across to others here, as some things in your response back to me, seem to have been very slightly 'adjusted', 'misconstrued', or 'moved out of context'.

I do see there is plenty of frustration here by a core few, but I currently do not see it making any sort of 'huge dent' on the Sonos chosen outcome for the CR100 device.

That’s not to say I am back here again to continue to argue some small points with you, or to try to support my own viewpoints, as I probably would then run the risk of being overly repetitive.

At the very least, I just hope I have given some folks here a few things to think about and I will now quietly dip out of the thread and will wait patiently to see the final outcome.

Maybe we can look back at some later stage and constructively discuss some of the topics that were covered here in the last day, or so, across these few pages. I think that it maybe a little more interesting, than any continual 'toing & froing' exchanges.

I think it can sometimes pay to just take a small step back and to then simply wait and see what happens next, following any response from johngolfuk's letter to the CEO. So I will now do that.
Userlevel 5
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I, and persons in my household, have a visual disability (vision impairment) and a physical disability. The physical buttons on my CR100 are the things that help me and my family use the SONOS system. Without the physical buttons, it is much more laborious to use the system for its main purpose. The CR100, which was purchased at full price, and which is fully functional, suffers from no "exploding battery" issue since I had the forethought to update the battery. The actions SONOS are planning to take clearly demonstrate their lack of respect for the Americans with Disabilities Act.

I wonder if a lawyer would be able to help me with this case for possible violations of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Userlevel 6
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I'm checking with a contact at Consumers Union (Consumer Reports magazine) on what the US laws are regarding consumer compensation for potentially dangerous electronics (claimed, not proven, and now unclear from multiple sources at Sonos) that are recalled. If any of our friends in the UK and Europe have some context that would be interesting. Is it possible that Sonos will actually do a recall on all CR-100s sometime in the near future? If so are those agreeing to the voucher offer giving up some level of higher compensation in the future if/when the full recall is finally rolled out?
Userlevel 1
Sonos - this is a terrible decision. I've had a CR100 for years. It's easy to use and reliable, unlike the CR200 I had which died after a couple of years. In the morning I can switch the radio on with one push of a button, unlike the Sonos app, where I have to enter a password to get onto my phone, go into the app and then go through several screens to turn the radio on. Please reconsider your decision. Frankly, the whole "battery isn't safe" argument is weak in the extreme
Userlevel 7
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thoughts on the CR200

not going to discuss how terrible the CR200 was in quality and design, however, it did have a replaceable battery.
so I do not expect Sonos to use the "old battery" argument to kill off the CR200.

For those of you that still have a CR200 (I have 2) I would expect that once this "Planned-obsolescence" or "end-of-life" status is drilled onto us by Sonos I would suggest the CR200 will be soon to meet the same fate as the CR100 and then the "policy" will have been established and all the Sonos gear is then up being "ended" at the behest of Sonos.
while my 30 year old audio gear is running as it always had elsewhere in the house.

this is the same as "hardware as a service" for those that believe they technically do not need to "own" anything, just use it and toss it when directed while you continue to make payments.
the "new" paradigm all vendors are trying to figure out how to move to, re-occurring revenue.
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I think it called "Product Churn"!
Userlevel 6
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Sonos - this is a terrible decision. I've had a CR100 for years. It's easy to use and reliable, unlike the CR200 I had which died after a couple of years. In the morning I can switch the radio on with one push of a button, unlike the Sonos app, where I have to enter a password to get onto my phone, go into the app and then go through several screens to turn the radio on. Please reconsider your decision. Frankly, the whole "battery isn't safe" argument is weak in the extreme
SharkyH

Welcome to the Sonos forums

May I ask how you found out about this decision some 7 weeks after it was announced?
Userlevel 6
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Sonos Lockdown Procedure Update

I have updated my Sonos lockdown procedure to add blocking of the update-firmware.sonos.com URL in addition to update.sonos.com (thanks to stevecomp3 for the information). I have also changed the procedure to focus on updating to (and backing up) v8.4 as this is now the only option available to those using the procedure.

My procedure for locking down a Sonos system to prevent it from bricking your CR100 controllers includes instructions on:
  • How to create "legacy" backups of all of the current desktop, iOS and Android apps.
  • How to lockdown your Sonos system to prevent updates.
  • How to install your "legacy" Sonos apps onto iOS and Android devices bypassing the Apple App store and Google Play store.
The procedure can be downloaded from here : https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkusSFHlKO4LnC8apkaX7t1lSA81

I don't have an Amazon device and as such the procedure does not include specific instructions for Amazon devices or the Amazon Appstore. If someone is willing to create such a procedure then I'd love to add it to mine.
Userlevel 3
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I'm checking with a contact at Consumers Union (Consumer Reports magazine) on what the US laws are regarding consumer compensation for potentially dangerous electronics (claimed, not proven, and now unclear from multiple sources at Sonos) that are recalled. If any of our friends in the UK and Europe have some context that would be interesting. Is it possible that Sonos will actually do a recall on all CR-100s sometime in the near future? If so are those agreeing to the voucher offer giving up some level of higher compensation in the future if/when the full recall is finally rolled out?

I mentioned that my compensation received did not require me to accept any T&Cs. As far as I am concerned it is compensation for the CR100 being bricked by Sonos against my will. It could still be sitting charging in its cradle after D-day unless they somehow have control over the power circuits in software so any recall should likely apply?
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I'm in a complete quandry. I have misplaced a Play 3 so it isn't connected to my system - it is currently in a storage box, I don't know where and hasn't been connected for months! Everything else is currently on 8.4, no idea which version the missing Play 3 is on.

If I connect it in the future, am I right in thinking that it will try to update itself to a newer version and will then kill all my CR100s?

What can I do to stop this from happening?

I can't change the firewall settings on my router to block access the specific ports - I don't appear to have that option, nor to block sonos update pages either :-((

I have a few hours before I go on holiday, and then when I come back my CR100's will be dead, and I can't do anything about it...

It's going to ruin my holiday...
Userlevel 7
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I'm in a complete quandry. I have misplaced a Play 3 so it isn't connected to my system - it is currently in a storage box, I don't know where and hasn't been connected for months! Everything else is currently on 8.4, no idea which version the missing Play 3 is on.

If I connect it in the future, am I right in thinking that it will try to update itself to a newer version and will then kill all my CR100s?

What can I do to stop this from happening?

I can't change the firewall settings on my router to block access the specific ports - I don't appear to have that option, nor to block sonos update pages either :-((

I have a few hours before I go on holiday, and then when I come back my CR100's will be dead, and I can't do anything about it...

It's going to ruin my holiday...



In short I suspect nothing as 8.4 is recent so highly likely that the Play 3 will be on a previous version unless it went into storage in the last couple of weeks, The system won't operate with mismatched version numbers and will repeatedly try to update and refuse to play nicely with the other devices.

What router do you have?
Userlevel 2
I'm in a complete quandry. I have misplaced a Play 3 so it isn't connected to my system - it is currently in a storage box, I don't know where and hasn't been connected for months! Everything else is currently on 8.4, no idea which version the missing Play 3 is on.

If I connect it in the future, am I right in thinking that it will try to update itself to a newer version and will then kill all my CR100s?

What can I do to stop this from happening?

I can't change the firewall settings on my router to block access the specific ports - I don't appear to have that option, nor to block sonos update pages either :-((

I have a few hours before I go on holiday, and then when I come back my CR100's will be dead, and I can't do anything about it...

It's going to ruin my holiday...


First of all, if you power off your sonos system it can’t update itself. When you come back it still won’t update itself without your explicit consent (although it will be relatively easy for it to be accidentally updated). If you cannot find your missing Play3 until after 8.4 is no longer available you have a choice between two* unpalatable options:
1) Continue to use your system as it is (your Play3, when you find it, will be useless).
2) Update your Play3, when you find it, along with all another components (your CR100 controllers will stop working).

*Unless there is a late outbreak of common sense at Sonos orbital HQ ... I’m not holding my breath.
Userlevel 6
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I'm in a complete quandry. I have misplaced a Play 3 so it isn't connected to my system - it is currently in a storage box, I don't know where and hasn't been connected for months! Everything else is currently on 8.4, no idea which version the missing Play 3 is on.

If I connect it in the future, am I right in thinking that it will try to update itself to a newer version and will then kill all my CR100s?

What can I do to stop this from happening?

I can't change the firewall settings on my router to block access the specific ports - I don't appear to have that option, nor to block sonos update pages either :-((

I have a few hours before I go on holiday, and then when I come back my CR100's will be dead, and I can't do anything about it...

It's going to ruin my holiday...


First of all, if you power off your sonos system it can’t update itself.


Yes, I would also suggest simply powering down all of your Sonos equipment until you return. If your router is unable to block ports and access to specific URLs then I would suggest that you consider replacing your router with one that can, then block TCP port 4444 and the two Sonos update URLs BEFORE you power your Sonos system back on. Doing that should be enough to allow you to continue on v8.4 as-is.

If your router is an ISP provided one that cannot be changed out then it should be possible to put that one into bridged mode and use a new router for your LAN, WiFi and DHCP etc.