Can digital audio playback be improved by resolutions greater than 16/44.1?


Copied from another thread, courtesy of jgatie - full question was:

"Do you believe digital audio, outside of mastering/production techniques, can be improved by playback resolutions greater than 16/44.1?"

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93 replies

From Wikipedia:

Dithering eliminates the granularity of quantization error, giving very low distortion, but at the expense of a slightly raised noise floor. Measured using ITU-R 468 noise weighting, this is about 66 dB below alignment level, or 84 dB below digital full scale, which is somewhat lower than the microphone noise level on most recordings, and hence of no consequence in 16-bit audio.

Dither can also be used to increase the effective dynamic range. The perceived dynamic range of 16-bit audio can be 120 dB or more with noise-shaped dither, taking advantage of the frequency response of the human ear.

In other words, noise-shaped dither provides 16 bit recordings with all the resolution humans will ever need.
This will make no difference to those on the other side of the divide, to people holding close to faith based beliefs.
As a jazz fan, most of what i listen to was recorded during the golden age of jazz, the 1950s, on magnetic tape. These great recordings have an equivalent bit depth of perhaps 11 bits, and a bandwidth of 15khz, at best. Anything beyond CD resolution will simply be a waste.

Most modern pop recordings have maybe 9db of dynamic range. Again, "hi rez" would be a complete waste. Modern classical and jazz recordings, meticulously recorded, might have a tiny technical advantage at 24 bits, but I very much doubt anyone can hear a worthwhile difference.
Another excellent digest/commentary from Archimago: http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/musings-do-we-need-those-20khz.html
So none of the original hi-res audio (it's 24/96) will make it through, and even if it did, the Sonos system would presumably refuse to play it.

I have tried playing 24/96 ALAC through my CONNECT:AMP to see what would happen. The result was just white noise.

It sounded FANTASTIC, though. 😉
Off topic, if you want a treat, check this guy out: https://youtu.be/-V7Dqf-FQL4

Thanks for the link - quite a talent!

Returning the favor, check out Another One, a song by Project RnL from Israel. The bass solo at the end is extraordinary.
"Hi-res DD5.1" is pretty much an oxymoron. The maximum bitrate for DD/AC-3 is 640kbps. And that's for six channels (albeit the LFE is band-limited).

Indeed you are right, and thanks for pointing that out. I noted in a later post that the disc was actually DTS5.1, and I had to transcode it using a Playstation to feed the Playbar. So none of the original hi-res audio (it's 24/96) will make it through, and even if it did, the Sonos system would presumably refuse to play it.

The point of my story was not about hi-res, it was about the clear and positive effect of Trueplay tuning on a Sonos 5.1 setup. We also watched Dr Strange the other night with similar excellent 5.1 sound.
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Nothing of note to add to the discussion, other than the great music being discussed. Probably my favourite album of all time, certainly up there in my top 3. Most versions of the songs were better live and took on a life of their own. Seeing Steve Hackett again in a couple of months. 🙂 Nice Youtube link. 🙂
putting out Sonos branded routers and storage devices.
Erm...I have to confess to some posts on those lines myself in my early days here:)

LOL!!! I must have missed those events; I joined that 2007(?) thread late in the day, in 2011. It still had legs then though.


That was during his "Sonos should make me a router/NAS" phase. He could never seem to get the share on his Mac to work, and blamed Sonos instead of the well publicized and notoriously unreliable MacOS SMB implementation. Kept pleading with Sonos to cure his network woes by putting out Sonos branded routers and storage devices.
Never has there been a better combination of righteous indignation matched with an equal level of cluelessness.
LOL!!! I must have missed those events; I joined that 2007(?) thread late in the day, in 2011. It still had legs then though.
Does the legendary wapping high thread need to be a sticky?! So we can just point the next person that chugs along with the same claims to the beginning of that discussion?!

I miss ol wapping. Never has there been a better combination of righteous indignation matched with an equal level of cluelessness. The time he broke down and conceded to follow our instructions on how to configure his NAS and, even after it worked, he still claimed it was Sonos to blame and not his network was comedy gold.
Given the era that record was recorded, I would be surprised if the original masters had the range to even fully utilize CD audio.
The 2008 remaster is pretty respectable. Nice clarity and soundstage, though presumably some of the HF on the percussion is forever lost.
Does the legendary wapping high thread need to be a sticky?! So we can just point the next person that chugs along with the same claims to the beginning of that discussion?!
The Bard's words about a hoist and a petard suddenly come to mind. ;)

Lol. But it was a good discussion.

Of course, till the next country is heard from, when this will start all over again. That is the nature of the internet forum beast; even where the search function works well, few will read what is there in the knowledge base.
The Bard's words about a hoist and a petard suddenly come to mind. ;)

And yes, that is a great album.
Given the era that record was recorded, I would be surprised if the original masters had the range to even fully utilize CD audio.

By the way, that was always one of my favourite albums when I was growing up, and Firth of Fifth is probably one of my favourite tracks ever.

Off topic, if you want a treat, check this guy out: https://youtu.be/-V7Dqf-FQL4

Cheers,

Keith
By the way, I am currently listening to my only Hi-res DD5.1 recording on my Sonos 5.1 system. It's "Selling England By The Pound" by Genesis. It sounds great to be surrounded by sound (and the vocals stay up front while other instruments come from the rear, so genuine 5.1). The quality is excellent. I wouldn't know if the hi-res makes a difference or not, it doesn't matter.
I had to smile. "Hi-res DD5.1" is pretty much an oxymoron. The maximum bitrate for DD/AC-3 is 640kbps. And that's for six channels (albeit the LFE is band-limited).

Does this all not help to illustrate the point that the 'quality' is in the mix and the mastering? And, let's not forget, the composition and the artists' rendering? Oh, and a bit of adult beverage to enhance the memory of the original live performances, though as I recall the scent in the air then was of something rather different....
Based on what you found till now then, it would appear that Sonos is focusing on just the right places for improving your listening experiences!
I toggled it on and off. The sound went from vague to focused. It was a dramatic difference. I guess the mastering also makes a difference. The disc has stereo and 5.1 versions. I haven't compared them - I was just enjoying being surrounded by good sound. Interestingly, the disc doesn't have DD5.1, but has DTS 5.1. I'm having to play it on a Playstation to get it to work.
Trueplay and even better versions of it are the future of sound quality improvements. But are you sure that it is Trueplay that is pulling of this trick - easy to determine by toggling it on/off. I suspect that the made for 5.1 master may be the one to assign most of the credit to.

And don't equate hi res with genuine mixed for surround sound audio. That isn't apples and oranges; surround sound mixes have a lot more audible content in the first place compared to 2 channel hi res. Somehow it never took off; perhaps because it can't be heard on the move?
I will keep an open mind too, but I am seriously concerned I will no longer be able to play "what song is this" :)

By the way, I am currently listening to my only Hi-res DD5.1 recording on my Sonos 5.1 system. It's "Selling England By The Pound" by Genesis. It sounds great to be surrounded by sound (and the vocals stay up front while other instruments come from the rear, so genuine 5.1). The quality is excellent. I wouldn't know if the hi-res makes a difference or not, it doesn't matter. But what makes an enormous difference is Trueplay tuning the system. It really brings the sound to life!
I still think it is a gimmick. But I haven't used it, and ten years ago, I may have said the same thing about Sonos. In fact, I stayed away from wireless/internet audio for few years because I thought the loss of sound quality would be unacceptable to my discerning tastes in music!

So I will reserve a final judgement on voice until it matures fully and I have had a chance to test it. I believe that your question of talking over the music - as one example - has been addressed to quite a degree via the mic tech in use, and it will only get better in the right direction in future.
Good summary Kumar. Now let me ask you a question: when voice control becomes available, do you think you will use it? My concerns are twofold: one, I don't like the idea of a house filled with always-active microphones, and second, how does one add the next song to the queue over the sound of the previous song and without talking over the music?
I currently don't see the broader population demanding moving to higher-res as I don't perceive the typical individual truly discerning material differences in a real-world application.
Even if it could discern some differences, the broader population is far more interested in things like voice control, use of native apps, youtube video, home automation integration and the like. Even at the sacrifice of a little sound quality.

And who is to say it is wrong. For one thing, as the WHF interview says, stable streaming is more relevant to music enjoyment than marginal improvement in sound quality - music disruption can destroy the experience.

Secondly, the brain can effortlessly fill in for any little audible gaps that may exist - if they even do - between CD quality and Hi Res. But it cannot do so for things like voice control and all the other things that the broader population is now being offered. Sonos would be making a blunder if they did not take these trends and realities into account - and by all accounts, that is exactly what they are prioritising. They simply aren't interested in the market that cares less for these and more for hi res.