Apple Music lossless via S2?

  • 8 November 2021
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66 replies

K
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I was trying to easily airplay lossless tracks from apple music on my iPhone to my sonos but apparently that’s no possible. here is the test:

 

I’m wondering what’s the roadblock.

Airplay protocol restriction?

Wifi transfer speed limitation?

Lazy Apple Engineers?

Lazy Sonos Engineers?

 

 

K

However, I’m willing to admit that this perceived difference in quality may be psycho-somatic (since I’m still confused as to whether the S2 app is capable of accessing lossless files when it queries the Apple Music database).

 

 

Another equally valid reason you are hearing a difference could be if the sound levels for the compared alternatives are not identical down to 0.1dB. The louder will sound better, even if the louder is by just 0.1dB.

The solution to this issue suggests itself - just bump up the volume controls a notch on the less loud alternative.

K

The head of Apple Music is on record as saying that he/his team cannot pick out AAC v ALAC served via Apple Music in a blind listening test, except perhaps via high quality headphones.

It is of course possible that some people can hear what Apple folks themselves cannot but this may be something to keep in mind while pursuing Apple lossless.

G
Userlevel 3
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Yes Appel Music sounds much better on Sonos when using the Appel Music App and using Airplay2.

I am listening via a Port and yes I have disconnected the EQ setting in the Appel Music App and set the App to Lossless.

ratty

How can I check bandwidth?

It depends on your network. I was using the bandwidth monitor on a router running Tomato. 

 

What people were claiming was that the Apple Music App was converting lossless to AAC before streaming via Airplay. 

A quick scan of the Audiophile Style post suggests the results could be dependent on the app and the Airplay2 target. I have no way to compare, since my only target is Sonos and I have no Apple Music content on my iPad apart from the free U2/Songs Of Innocence album which appears to be in 256kbps AAC. Maybe if the Apple Music app is fed a lossless stream it would then send it on to Sonos as lossless. That would be logical, but I have no way to tell. 

What I can note, however, is that the Airplay traffic looks totally different from the Apple Music app compared to Deezer. The former is sent in chunks averaging about 280kbps (which is logical given the U2 AAC256 content), whereas the traffic from Deezer is a steady stream averaging ~1Mbps. The Deezer traffic also has all the hallmarks of lossless compression, in that the bitrate rises and falls depending on the complexity of the music.

S
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How can I check bandwidth? What people were claiming was that the Apple Music App was converting lossless to AAC before streaming via Airplay. Wouldn’t necessarily apply to Deezer.

ratty

I just rechecked.

iPad playing Deezer FLAC, Airplay to a wireless Port via a wired Boost (i.e. SonosNet). Average bandwidth around 1Mbps.

It can’t be AAC. It has to be ALAC. 

S
Userlevel 1
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I don’t understand it either, but there was a big discussion of it on Audiophile Style.

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/apple-music-lossless-mess-part-2-airplay-r1026/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-1158694

And definitely people using other AirPlay endpoints showing bandwidth measurements too low to be lossless.

ratty

It would be odd to send AAC over Airplay if the native Apple Music app was streaming in as ALAC. Why incur the processing overhead of psycho-acoustic lossy compression when it’s totally unnecessary?  

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPlay#Protocols Airplay uses ALAC. I don’t subscribe to Apple Music but I do have Deezer HiFi (FLAC), and bandwidth measurements of the Airplay traffic support the assertion that it’s ALAC.

S
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When Apple Music Lossless first rolled out, there was a lot of evidence that what was being streamed over AirPlay 2 was in fact lossy AAC and not ALAC.

 

I’m not sure if they have remedied this situation, but as of a few months ago, you could not be guaranteed that streaming from Apple Music to Sonos was lossless through either the native app or the Sonos app.

ratty

Of course there’s still the possibility for EQ to introduce variations, so I’ll concede that ‘lossless’ could be a debatable point there. I meant that there shouldn’t need to be lossy compression in the chain.

jgatie

As far as I’m aware Sonos doesn’t yet support Apple Music lossless for direct play. 

Using the Apple Music app on an iDevice along with Airplay would in theory permit a lossless path. 

 

Really?  I learn something new every day.  Glad to be corrected.   

ratty

As far as I’m aware Sonos doesn’t yet support Apple Music lossless for direct play. 

Using the Apple Music app on an iDevice along with Airplay would in theory permit a lossless path. 

jgatie

Actually: that’s precisely my question. Is S2 actually playing the raw (lossless) files? Or is Apple only reserving access to those lossless files for those who are listening via the Apple Music app. (To clarify: the music, to my ears, sounds “better” through Apple Music, not through S2—so this has nothing to do with settings on my Apple Music app. It has to do with S2’s access to source files).

 

Why would you think any DSP being applied by the Apple Music app couldn’t make the Airplay sound better?  They don’t put DSP processing in to make it sound worse (even though to some ears it may).  They put those DSP’s in because some people like them, and without knowing what DSP is turned on, you can’t know if you like them or not, hence why I asked. 

Though if you doubt Sonos is actually getting the same quality files, you can use a bandwidth monitor to see the size of each file as it is being streamed. 

tonsure
Userlevel 2
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Airplay is going to apply any DSP’s the Apple Music app on the phone is using, whereas Sonos is playing the raw data.  So it may be the case that it sounds different.  Look under the Settings in the Apple Music app, specifically the Sound Quality and Effects settings. 

Actually: that’s precisely my question. Is S2 actually playing the raw (lossless) files? Or is Apple only reserving access to those lossless files for those who are listening via the Apple Music app. (To clarify: the music, to my ears, sounds “better” through Apple Music, not through S2—so this has nothing to do with settings on my Apple Music app. It has to do with S2’s access to source files).

jgatie

Airplay is going to apply any DSP’s the Apple Music app on the phone is using, whereas Sonos is playing the raw data.  So it may be the case that it sounds different.  Look under the Settings in the Apple Music app, specifically the Sound Quality and Effects settings. 

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