Apple Music lossless via S2?

  • 8 November 2021
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66 replies

R
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I also have a Yamaha WXA50 here to test and its MusicCast app shows the bit / sampling rate on any incoming audio from a NAS / Radio EXCEPT when you use Airplay, where it just goes blank. 

K

 I just don’t buy the hires thing.

But - would be a shame to learn that AAC is all that’s available as I do believe there is a difference to 16/44

There I agree with you, where Hi Res is concerned. As to the second, Apple themselves say that there is no difference in a level matched blind test between Apple lossless and lossy, that their engineers can hear. There are some reports though, that Apple lossless streams run a little hotter so as to deliver a slightly higher sound level at the same volume control setting on the kit. If so, that will make an audible difference, but that is easy to fix.

R
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I’m not bothered about anything over 16/44 as I just don’t buy the hires thing. I’ve tried a lot it on some decent DACs and Amp (Arcam, Linn etc) wired from a NAS and can hear no difference.

 

I’ve kept my main Monitor Audio speakers but now use Sonos Amp and soundbars / subs  around the house because it just works and has the best app and Apple compatibility - we’re a heavy  Apple household and everyone needs easy access.

 

But - would be a shame to learn that AAC is all that’s available as I do believe there is a difference to 16/44

R
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I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

An easier and more conclusive way would be if anyone has a DAC that shows the incoming bitrate to just run this test? Many DACs do.

Which DAC has this capability - to show incoming bitrate?  I have searched extensively and have been unable to find one.

 

Check this out:

 

ratty

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

An easier and more conclusive way would be if anyone has a DAC that shows the incoming bitrate to just run this test? Many DACs do.

A DAC connected where exactly? A Port outputs 24/44.1 PCM on its S/PDIF regardless of the original source content. 

D

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

An easier and more conclusive way would be if anyone has a DAC that shows the incoming bitrate to just run this test? Many DACs do.

Which DAC has this capability - to show incoming bitrate?  I have searched extensively and have been unable to find one.

R
Badge

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

An easier and more conclusive way would be if anyone has a DAC that shows the incoming bitrate to just run this test? Many DACs do.

R
Badge

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

As I have a trial subscription to Apple Music I got around to measuring it.

When ostensibly playing ‘Lossless’ on the iPad Apple Music app the AirPlay stream to a Sonos player averaged only ~300kbps over 10 minutes. It was also pretty steady, not rising and falling with the music complexity. It looks like AAC256. 

By contrast the AirPlay stream from the Deezer app when playing lossless is around 1Mbps, i.e. ALAC.

This is pretty confusing - why would Apple allow a rival music service to send superior quality audio than their own Music app over their own protocol?

 

Is there no way then to get lossless Apple Music to a AP2 enabled Sonos Amp either via iOS or S2 app?

D

That is foolproof

ratty

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

As I have a trial subscription to Apple Music I got around to measuring it.

When ostensibly playing ‘Lossless’ on the iPad Apple Music app the AirPlay stream to a Sonos player averaged only ~300kbps over 10 minutes. It was also pretty steady, not rising and falling with the music complexity. It looks like AAC256. 

By contrast the AirPlay stream from the Deezer app when playing lossless is around 1Mbps, i.e. ALAC.

D

That is true.  I have found most of these focus on apple devices and also too many of them are on headphones, very few on AVRs and DAPs (I have been trying to establish which DAP has bitperfect USB output and allows installation and operation of Apple Music - no luck so far)  I subscribed to Apple music for a bit on android.  I used Airplay 2 and chromecast (and a USB DAC).  I wasn’t able to measure, but I was convinced I was getting 256AAC in both cases.  I am trying to find a workaround (someone in here posted something similar which I thought was quite smart - checking router data vs Airplayed data and comparing the two.  I have installed Glasswire - not sure if it will do what I want, but worth a try.

Airgetlam

What that article is missing is a non-Apple device. In the past, Apple has streamed different streams between their own devices than they have with devices not made by Apple. That article does not address that, one way or the other. 

Bruce
D

Greetings folks.  This has been confirmed through tests and confirmed by Apple this is how it works

  1. Apple Music app cannot stream lossless to Airplay 2, it converts to 256AAC
  2. Apple Music app can stream lossless to Airplay 1
  3. Apple Music app can send lossless to Airplay 2 if ALAC is saved on hard drive (self ripped DRM-free CDs)
  4. Apple Music also cannot send lossless to chromecast (for android users)

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/apple-music-lossless-mess-part-2-airplay-r1026/

J
Userlevel 2
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In a not completely scientific test (other data could have been downloading at the same time), I played a 3’12” long track, indicated as lossless, 24-bit/48kHz ALAC, in the Music app (iOS 15.1), and used Airplay 2 to send that to a Beam (running S2 13.4).

I skipped ahead in a playlist so that the phone wouldn’t have already downloaded and cached what I was playing.

The phone was logged by my WiFi AP as having downloaded approx 55MB, and the Beam received 6.2MB in the same time.

The order of magnitude difference strongly suggests to me that the Music stream was received by the phone, and re-encoded on the fly for Airplay to the Beam. But 6.2MB for 3 minutes also indicates a lossy codec.

G
Userlevel 2
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Just to be devil’s advocate, the iPad could be working harder because it’s converting lossless to AAC on the fly. That would require more computing power than just passing a lossless signal.


 

Correct we do not know for sure.

Therefore, it would be interesting if there was someone, as Ratty has previously suggested in this thread, who could measure the bandwith on the AirPlay2 stream.

Ps. It is possible to try Appel Music 3 months for free.

S
Userlevel 1
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The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

 

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

 

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

Just to be devil’s advocate, the iPad could be working harder because it’s converting lossless to AAC on the fly. That would require more computing power than just passing a lossless signal.

K

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

But if the reason for getting a better sound is because the lossless files are playing just a little louder, then why not achieve the same sound quality via a slightly higher setting on the volume control when using lossy files - then, even if there is power consumption/heating problem of the kind you refer to, it becomes a non issue!

For comparative testing, the point I am making is that even if you are just switching lossless to lossy within the Apple app, sound levels still need to independently matched before coming to a conclusion on sound quality, with other blind testing disciplines also followed.

The question then is that when the seller of the service himself says that there is really no difference in heard sound quality between lossy/lossless, is this effort of testing worth the time and energy and deployment of sound level testing equipment?

Note that Apple Music Atmos is a different animal altogether. There the difference in how the sound comes across is night and day and needs no blind testing to be sure of the validity. Which of the two sounds better, still remains a matter of personal preference.

G
Userlevel 2
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The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

 

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

 

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

K

@Gert_4 More on the louder lossless thing - while the link claims this to be the case, it is after all just one data point on the net, and may not be valid. However it does point out to the need to not automatically assume that sound levels from Apple lossless and lossy are the same to the extent needed for a valid comparison test.

ratty

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

K


The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

 

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

 

G
Userlevel 2
Badge +3

I experience a more airy, open and distinct dynamic sound.

And of course I know everything about "Kumar’s" countless and many times written standard, - but correct, “sound leveling” answer.

But in this case you perhaps can get around this sound level problem

 

Perhaps I have not understood the reply posted, but in response to the last sentence quoted would it not be simpler to just use the volume control?


The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

 

K

I experience a more airy, open and distinct dynamic sound.

And of course I know everything about "Kumar’s" countless and many times written standard, - but correct, “sound leveling” answer.

But in this case you perhaps can get around this sound level problem

 

Perhaps I have not understood the reply posted, but in response to the last sentence quoted would it not be simpler to just use the volume control?

G
Userlevel 2
Badge +3

I experience a more airy, open and distinct dynamic sound.

And of course I know everything about "Kumar’s" countless and many times written standard, - but correct, “sound leveling” answer.

But in this case you perhaps can get around this sound level problem

And perhaps it may not have anything to do with the Sonos App, but it may still be connected.

 

If you go to the iPad's Settings under Music and then to sound quality you could, when playing, switch between the Lossless sound and the Standard sound.

And yes, there is a short interruption when you the change the sound quality setting, but I sense an improvement of the sound when I "switch" to the Lossless Sound.

And I do not think, that this possible sound change, could be noticed on any Sonos speakers, but playing  via a Port and a good sound system, I do sense a sound change for the better.

Just another thing, when I play a “normal” sound source via Airplay2, my Ipad does not get very hot, but when I play Lossless from the Apple Music App, the back of my Ipad gets hot, this may indicate that the iPad works extra hard when it plays Lossless. 

But whether the Appel Music App also sends Lossless to my Port I do not know, but I as “tonsure”, who started this tread, I am also experiencing a sound improvement, - but I could be wrong.

K
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Yes Appel Music sounds much better on Sonos when using the Appel Music App and using Airplay2.

I am listening via a Port and yes I have disconnected the EQ setting in the Appel Music App and set the App to Lossless.

Both S2 → Airplay or Apple Music (set Lossless) → Airplay will result in non-lossless playback on Sonos devices. How come you could perceive the difference?

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