This topic has been beat to death on this forum. I am hoping this thread generates enough interest to at least peak the interest of the money makers at Sonos and hopefully this or a version of it is put into production.
A "Zone Player Pro" would be Ampless and have One (1) Coax and One (1) Optical Digital Outputs in a standard 17" Audio/HT component case.
Forget any and all other requests, for now, such as rackmount, color, additional features, or a Price Reduction. Lets assume it will cost the same as the current Zone player $499, anything less would be a bonus.
Simply put, do you want and would you purchase a "Zone Player Pro".
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Hi Pciav,
We have had some problems playing music from the Escient systems to Sonos.
Just didn't want you to be caught off guard if it doesn't work with us.
-Jason
We have had some problems playing music from the Escient systems to Sonos.
Just didn't want you to be caught off guard if it doesn't work with us.
-Jason
It has no internal amp, it's a different concept, based on a standard stereo setup. The satellites would also need a stereo or active speakers. You get an infrared remote, without display.
So the audiophile customer who just wants his music digitized and accessible from multiple rooms in high quality, could be interested in this.
The audiophile customer who wants a slick whole-house system with central control (like me), needs a sonos with digital out. So I'll keep on waiting.
Come on Sonos, it can't be that hard . . . Tell me where to solder the thing on to the PCB and I'm your customer. If you're not going to put it to market, maybe "some user";) can post a mod anonymously . . .
So the audiophile customer who just wants his music digitized and accessible from multiple rooms in high quality, could be interested in this.
The audiophile customer who wants a slick whole-house system with central control (like me), needs a sonos with digital out. So I'll keep on waiting.
Come on Sonos, it can't be that hard . . . Tell me where to solder the thing on to the PCB and I'm your customer. If you're not going to put it to market, maybe "some user";) can post a mod anonymously . . .
In the US, it is also sold as the "Musica"
http://www.olive.us/p_bin/?cid=01_06_musica
I saw this a while back, looks interesting. It does support synchronous playback with the Sonata gadget but I think Sonos has a much better UI. Not much info about the internal amp either.
Sure - One of my ZP does not have speakers attached to it (no need).
Depends how much though...
Depends how much though...
Sonos takes their sweet time with everything, but from what I've seen and played with, they can take all the time they need.
It took how many months for this cradle to go from announcement to near release? I know there isn't a date yet, but that thing has gotta be near done. So thinking like this, people started asking about a digital out around Jan/Feb. It didn't get a lot of hype til April/May, so by my best guess, they'll have something for us next year. It takes time to plan, design, test a new product. Especially something like a new Sonos player.
So, by that reasoning, if you can wait til April of next year, we may see something, or at least hear something. Sonos would be on crack to not at least make an announcement by then. These Sonos users are crazy 😉.
So, can ya wait? I can, and will. Full support Sonos!
-jibbajabba
It took how many months for this cradle to go from announcement to near release? I know there isn't a date yet, but that thing has gotta be near done. So thinking like this, people started asking about a digital out around Jan/Feb. It didn't get a lot of hype til April/May, so by my best guess, they'll have something for us next year. It takes time to plan, design, test a new product. Especially something like a new Sonos player.
So, by that reasoning, if you can wait til April of next year, we may see something, or at least hear something. Sonos would be on crack to not at least make an announcement by then. These Sonos users are crazy 😉.
So, can ya wait? I can, and will. Full support Sonos!
-jibbajabba
In the US, it is also sold as the "Musica"
http://www.olive.us/p_bin/?cid=01_06_musica
Wow, never heard of that one. Hot industry. New products keep popping up. Hope someone gets it right soon. All the musica needs is a graphical interface, expandable storage and it would be quite a nice product.
I'm still hoping Sonos has been listening and has a trick or two up their sleeve in the near future.
Phil C.
LET ME BE EXTREMELY CLEAR ON THIS... I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO BUY THE ESCIENT, I REPEAT, I DO NOT WANT TO BUY ANOTHER PRODUCT. I WOULD MUCH PREFER TO SPEND MY MONEY ON A SONOS SOLUTION BUT THERE ISN'T A SONOS ALTERNATIVE FOR ME TO PURCHASE OR THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF ONE.
Do you know the Hifidelio? All it lacks in comparison to a Sonos is the slick control concept, and synchronous play. It supports Wlan satellites, has digital outs, and is said to have very good audiophile qualities.
In the US, it is also sold as the "Musica"
http://www.olive.us/p_bin/?cid=01_06_musica
I need the digital out. I can't believe that a system which will cost me thousands hasn't got this simple output.
After all, the Sonos is aiming at people who do spend loads of cash on sound equipment, I bet 'cha most of them have a d/a converter available that is better than the Sonos can ever provide in a $500 box.
After all, the Sonos is aiming at people who do spend loads of cash on sound equipment, I bet 'cha most of them have a d/a converter available that is better than the Sonos can ever provide in a $500 box.
have not bought a Sonos yet as I minimally need digital output - I don't think this is irrational in today's digital world; as someone pointed out even a $30 DVD player has one. Would take the current unit with a digital output IF the volume of the digital and analog outputs could be seperately controlled and/or selected 'max' at all times.
My ideal pro model would have IR emitter for control of existing tuner on/off/source/volume, component form factor, selectable volume adjustable or max, and I don't need the wireless mesh network as all units will be hard-wired 100mbps ethernet (i realize the latter may just be me ... and maybe it needs to be in the unit for the controller ...)
thanks for your consideration,
AndyN
My ideal pro model would have IR emitter for control of existing tuner on/off/source/volume, component form factor, selectable volume adjustable or max, and I don't need the wireless mesh network as all units will be hard-wired 100mbps ethernet (i realize the latter may just be me ... and maybe it needs to be in the unit for the controller ...)
thanks for your consideration,
AndyN
We have had some problems playing music from the Escient systems to Sonos.
Just didn't want you to be caught off guard if it doesn't work with us.
-Jason
Hi Jason,
Thanks for the info. I would be using the Escient completely as a stand alone system in my Living Room Audio/Home Theater area. I realize the two may not play well together and do not even plan on trying. What I do know though is that Escient is finally getting smart and bringing there pricing in to the affordable area. They are also planning a Q1 2006 software update to allow music to be accessed and streamed from a network attached computer and/or NAS. This is mainly why I am willing to take a chance on it.
LET ME BE EXTREMELY CLEAR ON THIS... I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO BUY THE ESCIENT, I REPEAT, I DO NOT WANT TO BUY ANOTHER PRODUCT. I WOULD MUCH PREFER TO SPEND MY MONEY ON A SONOS SOLUTION BUT THERE ISN'T A SONOS ALTERNATIVE FOR ME TO PURCHASE OR THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF ONE.
The current ZP is too much of a quality drop for me using it in my audio system. I have tried it as reported above. My Laptop via S/PDIF out to my Pre-Pro wins hands down over the analog out of the Sonos. There is nothing wrong with the ZP as it is for a stand alone operation, but is not up to snuff in my audio rack. I want to replace my 400 CD Changer and gain all the convenience and features of the Sonos without giving up sound quality. Just a digital output alone would solve this problem for me and many others. Sure I want an ampless 17" audio form component with a digital output, but all I really need is a digital ouput.
Jason, I realize your hands are tied at what you can say or not, but if there is any way you or someone from Sonos can provide the info I need before I make the decision to purchase the Escient it would be greatly appreciated. I do not mean here in the public forum. Email or let me know who to contact and I will. I am willing to sign an NDA for any info provided no matter what it is good or bad either way. I am willing to wait a little time if I know it is coming. If not, go forward with a clear head that I tried my best to support Sonos before making that decision.
AGAIN, JUST FOR THE RECORD, I PREFER TO SPEND MY MONEY ON A SONOS PRODUCT. I HAVE $999 READY TO BE SPENT ON THE ESCIENT SE-80.
I know my $999 doesn't mean too much in the scheme of things to Sonos. I am sorry to rant on about what really is not that an important issue in the world right now with everything going on. Can we try to put this hotly debated and requested feature to rest some way some how. C'mon Sonos, bring some pre-christmas cheer to some very appreciative current and future Sonos owners.
Thanks for listening.
Phil C.
I would be very interested in an amp less ZP player. The distributed sound systems that I install consist of a mix of wired and wirless ZPs but most of my customers also have a number of AVRs (new and old) around the house that they want to tie into digital music streams for stored music tracks, playlists or Internet radio. I know that I could increase my Sonos business by a third with an amp less ZP and gain more customer loyality by protecting their investments in AVRs that they have around the home.
The major problems that I have with the existing ZP is the size, cost and heat. I think that the amp less ZP should be a small as possible (5 port network switch or WAP) and as low cost as possible ($100 +). I would prefer to have the digital and analog out, but if I have to I can work with just and analog line out.
The major problems that I have with the existing ZP is the size, cost and heat. I think that the amp less ZP should be a small as possible (5 port network switch or WAP) and as low cost as possible ($100 +). I would prefer to have the digital and analog out, but if I have to I can work with just and analog line out.
Buzz,
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I agree with your assesment also. I said somewhere back that the Sonos is targeted at the middle of the road Home Theater Enthusiast and that this market is the meat and potatoes.
You know we all have slightly different ideas and uses, but one that is constant is that we wouldn't be talking about any of this if the Sonos wasn't as good a product as it is.
Voting has slowed down. I hope this has at least piqued the interest of the powers that be at Sonos and something comes of it.
We are in the middle of some remodeling and I am about to make some equipment changes also. I sure would like to know if this is a possibility anytime in the near future or not. I am getting close to trying the Escient SE-80 but trying to hold off hoping there might be a glimmer of hope for a Sonos product.
Again, thanks to all for all the good discusions and ideas here.
Phil C.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I agree with your assesment also. I said somewhere back that the Sonos is targeted at the middle of the road Home Theater Enthusiast and that this market is the meat and potatoes.
You know we all have slightly different ideas and uses, but one that is constant is that we wouldn't be talking about any of this if the Sonos wasn't as good a product as it is.
Voting has slowed down. I hope this has at least piqued the interest of the powers that be at Sonos and something comes of it.
We are in the middle of some remodeling and I am about to make some equipment changes also. I sure would like to know if this is a possibility anytime in the near future or not. I am getting close to trying the Escient SE-80 but trying to hold off hoping there might be a glimmer of hope for a Sonos product.
Again, thanks to all for all the good discusions and ideas here.
Phil C.
[ ... ]
Why do they advertise so heavily in Home Theater Magazine's...
[ ... ]
In my experience, SONOS is not a product for the audiophile. Many of them distrust anything digital and all have very traditional ideas about what audio equipment is and does.
SONOS customers go to audio stores because that seems to be the place to purchase audio equipment. Many of them really don't want audio equipment, they just want music. When they see the SONOS, they instantly bond with it.
Many home theater customers also want whole house audio, it's all one big project. This aspect makes "Home Theater Magazine" a decent media choice.
I wonder if some of the high end media, such as airline seating would work for SONOS (with appropriate copy).
Rembrandt,
All good stuff, appreciate the patent info and sales info.
Just one more hint that the bread and butter is the Audio/HT Market. Take a look at the store locator and see who is typically selling the Sonos. Mostly custom installers and high end specialty home theater retailers. I recently visited a new Magnolia Hi-Fi that opened in my area (inside of Best Buy) and in there high end room they had the Sonos. Why do they advertise so heavily in Home Theater Magazine's...
Just teasing you a bit... 😉
Thanks again.
Phil C.
All good stuff, appreciate the patent info and sales info.
Just one more hint that the bread and butter is the Audio/HT Market. Take a look at the store locator and see who is typically selling the Sonos. Mostly custom installers and high end specialty home theater retailers. I recently visited a new Magnolia Hi-Fi that opened in my area (inside of Best Buy) and in there high end room they had the Sonos. Why do they advertise so heavily in Home Theater Magazine's...
Just teasing you a bit... 😉
Thanks again.
Phil C.
I did a little research at work today, Sonos currently is valued at a 50 million a year company. And currently only holds ONE patent application (which isn't even on wireless streaming music - its on using wired systems to stream data.) That doesn't mean that they dont have discressionaries in.
In the VC world in todays day and age, a company their size is normally valued at 10 million for each million in revenue, so one can guess that Sonos has had approximatly five million in sales so far.
Not a bad chunk, but I'm willing to bet not break even yet though.
They show a lot of promise - and i'm sure they are not intentionally alienating an established market, but the professional in me says they are not trying to 'take over' a market, but build a new one.
Think of it this way : The leading producer of powertools in the U.S.A. is a 4 billion dollar a year company. They dont focus on selling hand drills to folks who already have them - thats a losing strategy. They focus selling hand drills to people who just bought their first house - and need a drill.
People are a renewable resource, large companies (or small companies who want to become large companies) realize this eventually. There is a company out there called Games-Workshop who's one time CEO had the best quote ever .. he said :
"Our target market is 12 year old boys, When our distributors complain that poke-mon, or starwars are hurting their gaming sales in that demographic this year, ask them how many boys will turn 12 NEXT year, then ask them why they are already ignoring next years sales - to focus on customers who are turning 13, and leaving our target demographic anyways. Remind them that 12 year old boys are a renewable resource, there happen to be new ones every year - ones who don't have our product yet."
From what I see of the sonos marketing engine, they are definatly going after 'more' shelf space, not trying to take the old market away from its current suppliers.
[this is just a rebuttal to your idea that SONOS is expecting its bread and butter to be from the audio/hf market. No one knows this for sure, except the management at Sonos of course 🙂 I'm just playing the backseat VP today.]
And .. of course your right 🙂 This is a silly argument 🙂 Sonos will do what Sonos does, any company that makes its business decisions soley based on postings on an web-forum, won't be around long enough for it to matter anyways :)
as always, i do agree that a digital out would be great. seems like a simple thing to have included, no idea why it wasn't perhaps it was not stable enough.
All i know is i love my SONOS, but like everyone, i see things that could be corrected on it. I'm not saying that there are not features I would love to see, just that [aside from a few folks like you, where money isn't the driving factor - you just want specific features - costs be damned.] most folks making the 'no amp' argument, seem to be doing it from the argument that they want a lower entry price point, not due to exacting standards.
Just to play devils advocate, I do point out that stacking 5 SONOS in one pre-wired area, really just counteract then whole wireless-mesh premis of the system .. I would think that would degrade the performance of the remotes in various portions of the house, depending on walls - size etc. [This is part of what I mean about it being counterproductive to the design of the system - which was engineered to be multiple zones spread out to form a mesh - not stacked zones with a very powerful signal.]
regardless, discussion is always good .. agreement notwithstanding
... The problems you bring up do not seem to be major manufacturing or implementation problems. Sonos may have a problem of capital, but that is a different story. I do not know how successful the launch of Sonos has been, but have to imagine it has gone quite well and they want it to continue.
Sonos already made one mistake by not including a digital output on the ZP. If they just make that correction alone, I and plenty others would buy another unit for the use we are proposing. Buying $600 speakers does not make one an audiophile. This is not about the audiophile; however, by making this product you will not continue to alienate that market segment who typically have more disposable income to spend on these toys.
In the VC world in todays day and age, a company their size is normally valued at 10 million for each million in revenue, so one can guess that Sonos has had approximatly five million in sales so far.
Not a bad chunk, but I'm willing to bet not break even yet though.
They show a lot of promise - and i'm sure they are not intentionally alienating an established market, but the professional in me says they are not trying to 'take over' a market, but build a new one.
Think of it this way : The leading producer of powertools in the U.S.A. is a 4 billion dollar a year company. They dont focus on selling hand drills to folks who already have them - thats a losing strategy. They focus selling hand drills to people who just bought their first house - and need a drill.
People are a renewable resource, large companies (or small companies who want to become large companies) realize this eventually. There is a company out there called Games-Workshop who's one time CEO had the best quote ever .. he said :
"Our target market is 12 year old boys, When our distributors complain that poke-mon, or starwars are hurting their gaming sales in that demographic this year, ask them how many boys will turn 12 NEXT year, then ask them why they are already ignoring next years sales - to focus on customers who are turning 13, and leaving our target demographic anyways. Remind them that 12 year old boys are a renewable resource, there happen to be new ones every year - ones who don't have our product yet."
From what I see of the sonos marketing engine, they are definatly going after 'more' shelf space, not trying to take the old market away from its current suppliers.
[this is just a rebuttal to your idea that SONOS is expecting its bread and butter to be from the audio/hf market. No one knows this for sure, except the management at Sonos of course 🙂 I'm just playing the backseat VP today.]
And .. of course your right 🙂 This is a silly argument 🙂 Sonos will do what Sonos does, any company that makes its business decisions soley based on postings on an web-forum, won't be around long enough for it to matter anyways :)
as always, i do agree that a digital out would be great. seems like a simple thing to have included, no idea why it wasn't perhaps it was not stable enough.
All i know is i love my SONOS, but like everyone, i see things that could be corrected on it. I'm not saying that there are not features I would love to see, just that [aside from a few folks like you, where money isn't the driving factor - you just want specific features - costs be damned.] most folks making the 'no amp' argument, seem to be doing it from the argument that they want a lower entry price point, not due to exacting standards.
Just to play devils advocate, I do point out that stacking 5 SONOS in one pre-wired area, really just counteract then whole wireless-mesh premis of the system .. I would think that would degrade the performance of the remotes in various portions of the house, depending on walls - size etc. [This is part of what I mean about it being counterproductive to the design of the system - which was engineered to be multiple zones spread out to form a mesh - not stacked zones with a very powerful signal.]
regardless, discussion is always good .. agreement notwithstanding
Sonos already made one mistake by not including a digital output on the ZP. If they just make that correction alone, I and plenty others would buy another unit for the use we are proposing. Buying $600 speakers does not make one an audiophile. This is not about the audiophile; however, by making this product you will not continue to alienate that market segment who typically have more disposable income to spend on these toys.
Our role as consumers of the product is to ask for features we consider useful. Sonos' role is to figure out how to meet that need and price it appropriately.
Still, I won't be waiting for Sonos to do it. I expect it will be a long time even after they decide to do it. So I plan to modify a ZP to add a digital-out as soon as the instructions to do so become available.
Rodhead,
Still laughing, thanks for the dose of reality.
I wouldn't mind waiting if I new it was coming in a reasonable amount of time. I hope it comes before someone else puts out a similar product with all the pieces in place and steals the thunder and beats Sonos to the punch.
Phil C.
I always wonder why some of us spend a lot of time doing elaborate analyses of why it will be difficult for Sonos to meet this or some other need and then shake their heads and say "nah, you'll never get this feature".
Our role as consumers of the product is to ask for features we consider useful. Sonos' role is to figure out how to meet that need and price it appropriately.
Still, I won't be waiting for Sonos to do it. I expect it will be a long time even after they decide to do it. So I plan to modify a ZP to add a digital-out as soon as the instructions to do so become available.
Our role as consumers of the product is to ask for features we consider useful. Sonos' role is to figure out how to meet that need and price it appropriately.
Still, I won't be waiting for Sonos to do it. I expect it will be a long time even after they decide to do it. So I plan to modify a ZP to add a digital-out as soon as the instructions to do so become available.
OK Rembrandt, glad to know you read me correct and we are all basically on the same page. We can agree to disagree... :)
I do not understand everything you are talking about as respects to the patent(s), but have to ask the question...What about every streaming media device out there now including PC's using wifi? They all use similar methods and technology. It is not my area of expertise so I can not really comment. On a logical level, it make no sense based upon the number of wired and wireless devices in the market that are doing or attempting to do the same thing including microsoft with its media center pc's and third party media center extenders. I can go on and on and list mfg. after mfg. with some sort wirelss music transmission and device or pc to handle it.
If you do not think the Audio/HT market is or will be the driving force to keep this product alive, I do not think you are looking at this from all angles and think you might want to take another look.
More than likely anyone who has whole house multiroom audio also has a dedicated audio/ht area that this product would serve well and that is why it is being so hotly debated here. Sonos has made it easy for everyone to have music anywhere in your house.
There is no need to separate this product form the original ZP or the Sonos Vision. It is a complimetary product that should be able to be produced along side the current ZP in concert. The problems you bring up do not seem to be major manufacturing or implementation problems. Sonos may have a problem of capital, but that is a different story. I do not know how successful the launch of Sonos has been, but have to imagine it has gone quite well and they want it to continue.
Sonos already made one mistake by not including a digital output on the ZP. If they just make that correction alone, I and plenty others would buy another unit for the use we are proposing. Buying $600 speakers does not make one an audiophile. This is not about the audiophile; however, by making this product you will not continue to alienate that market segment who typically have more disposable income to spend on these toys.
Not everyone is going to want one, but more people than not do or will. You may not want it or even think about it when you first buy your Sonos bundle, but I am willing to bet that after having and using the Sonos and seeing how well it works, many will want to intergrate one into the Audio/HT racks. The problem is most will not be happy with the current configuration and options for doing just that.
More good discussions and thoughts. Thanks.
Phil C.
I do not understand everything you are talking about as respects to the patent(s), but have to ask the question...What about every streaming media device out there now including PC's using wifi? They all use similar methods and technology. It is not my area of expertise so I can not really comment. On a logical level, it make no sense based upon the number of wired and wireless devices in the market that are doing or attempting to do the same thing including microsoft with its media center pc's and third party media center extenders. I can go on and on and list mfg. after mfg. with some sort wirelss music transmission and device or pc to handle it.
If you do not think the Audio/HT market is or will be the driving force to keep this product alive, I do not think you are looking at this from all angles and think you might want to take another look.
More than likely anyone who has whole house multiroom audio also has a dedicated audio/ht area that this product would serve well and that is why it is being so hotly debated here. Sonos has made it easy for everyone to have music anywhere in your house.
There is no need to separate this product form the original ZP or the Sonos Vision. It is a complimetary product that should be able to be produced along side the current ZP in concert. The problems you bring up do not seem to be major manufacturing or implementation problems. Sonos may have a problem of capital, but that is a different story. I do not know how successful the launch of Sonos has been, but have to imagine it has gone quite well and they want it to continue.
Sonos already made one mistake by not including a digital output on the ZP. If they just make that correction alone, I and plenty others would buy another unit for the use we are proposing. Buying $600 speakers does not make one an audiophile. This is not about the audiophile; however, by making this product you will not continue to alienate that market segment who typically have more disposable income to spend on these toys.
Not everyone is going to want one, but more people than not do or will. You may not want it or even think about it when you first buy your Sonos bundle, but I am willing to bet that after having and using the Sonos and seeing how well it works, many will want to intergrate one into the Audio/HT racks. The problem is most will not be happy with the current configuration and options for doing just that.
More good discussions and thoughts. Thanks.
Phil C.
Don't worry, I don't see you as combative. And you are correct, i have not read EVERY thread on this subject, there are far.. far to many. And I do actually give some credit to the digital out - but most folks are on the 'no amp for less money bandwagon' which is what my original post was in reference to .. sorry for the confusion on that.
When I was discussing IP (and i admit, it was a rather cursery inspection) there is a company out there that holds a U.S. patent specifically for :
" ... a device that may or may not be amplified which accepts a music file or stream of audio music from a PC or group of pc's [ed: ie a network] which may or may not be attached to ..."
Its not all about manufacturing costs.
While this patent doesn't talk about streaming it wirelessly, which might give SONOS an advantage on filing an application this patent could be interpreted as a 'show stopper' for Sonos, as they would have to then prove a uniqueness or an enhancement over this patent.
If they were to file an improvement on an existing patent, they might owe royalties to the previous inventor. [which at industry standard are 2-4% per unit sales volume etc.]
Just so you folks understand, it takes upwards of two years to be issued a patent, and costs roughly $50k. And thats assuming you only have 3 or 4 indepentant claims.
In a nutshell, the patent industry is not a pretty place, its very rarely straightforward in the sence that you fill out form a and get results b. Infringement can happen on any of the methods your product uses, and its financally prohibitive to investigate / protect them all.
For software, i'm sure there would have to be changes, as volume wouldn't be controlled from the SONOS unit anymore, you can't just pump up the juice to the line out now can you ? So you would have to have the ability to exclude those units from 'group volume' etc .. not a big deal im sure, but its adding one more hump to the proverbial camel's programmed back.
as for manufacturing, its not like you can just leave the amp off the board, there are entire circuts that would most likely have to be removed, rerouted, and fail-safed. The days of transistor radios is long gone saddly. Lets assume that they are producing these units where every OTHER mass produced electronics devices are produced - somewhere in asia. [China is the current favorite for large companies, and this is what I am used to dealing with so I will use it as an example.]
[We are ignoring the possibility that SONOS's application for patents has the entire schematic for the device on file, which means they would have to file again, or risk potential infringement.]
To make a production run of .. lets say .. 50k 14.4 volt cordless drills, the time to tool up is maybe 30 days. This means laying out staff and equipment to produce circutboards, manual assembly of units, packaging etc.
Changes to a circut board - for example, to add a SIMPLE variable resistance loop to make the trigger more sensative, will raise costs several dollars a unit. This is caused by factors such as having to alter the circut boards (and thus having to alter the process to etch them.) Additional components, additional training for the staff [there are below minimum wage workers in a comunist country, not exactly a go-getter-free-thinking workforce.]
And this is if the changes don't modify the PHYSICAL housing of the drill. If that changes, its a whole new level of expensive pain.
[your average power drill has some 80 plastic / metal components in it that are specially made for that tool. just getting all these parts produced in quantity can be months of nightmare.]
Add Customer service into the list, which, by the way - is the LARGEST expense to any manufacturing business. Hence why a lot of it is moving to india.
There are a LOT of factors here.
To produce two models, that essentially do the same thing - would double, maybe even tripple their operating costs, inventory levels, and assets tied up in non moving (and taxable) inventory.
In a perfect world, yes, they would do this, and market it to another corner of the customers.
But let me put on my marketing hat now :
Why would I sell this to customers for less ? this is a product that the audophile would desire, not the entry level consumer that my existing product is targeted for. Audophiles pay upwards of $600 for Polk speakers .. EACH ..
If this product were targeted towards that audiance, why on earth would any MBA worth their salt not only devalue their existing product line, but cut into their profit, to sell a professional targeted product at BELOW entry level prices ?
Especially on a product that will sell less, take longer to turn, and isn't related to their immediate core business goals. Now ask yourself, when their closest competition in this area sells similar units for almost 3X the price of thier current model, where is the business sence in pricing your units so low ?
While i agree with you, in a perfect world, were SONOS not in this to be a profitable business, and if they didn't have shareholders and investors to report to - they might consider this an additional source of revenue, or a way to capture a bigger piece of the pie that is the home audio center market. Personally, I don't have any use for non-amp units, as I have recently moved - my old house was all pre-wired, and they would have been useful there for sure. Our new house is a much nicer layout, and i actually value the sonos for the ability to be put on a bookshelf, and NOT look like a stereo component. I don't want consumer electronics to dominate my living space, call me bourgeois, but I would rather leave that to the 'best buy' crowd.
So in a nutshell - yeah, I could see how this would have some limited market appeal, but it doesn't seem to fit with what I understand of SONOS's apparant master plan. What I see here are a lot of people asking SONOS for something that *MIGHT* get them to buy into their system, assuming they are not fickle, and just looking for excuses on not to spend the money. In my (overinflated 🙂 ) opinion, this ranks right up there with the suggestions of streaming video through the sonos, and my personal arch-nemisis : insisting that the PC should be its own zoneplayer. [which is physically POSSIBLE i suppose, just mechanically improbable.]
just my 2 cents, not telling anyone how to live their life - no personal shots on anyone here, only discussion.
When I was discussing IP (and i admit, it was a rather cursery inspection) there is a company out there that holds a U.S. patent specifically for :
" ... a device that may or may not be amplified which accepts a music file or stream of audio music from a PC or group of pc's [ed: ie a network] which may or may not be attached to ..."
Its not all about manufacturing costs.
While this patent doesn't talk about streaming it wirelessly, which might give SONOS an advantage on filing an application this patent could be interpreted as a 'show stopper' for Sonos, as they would have to then prove a uniqueness or an enhancement over this patent.
If they were to file an improvement on an existing patent, they might owe royalties to the previous inventor. [which at industry standard are 2-4% per unit sales volume etc.]
Just so you folks understand, it takes upwards of two years to be issued a patent, and costs roughly $50k. And thats assuming you only have 3 or 4 indepentant claims.
In a nutshell, the patent industry is not a pretty place, its very rarely straightforward in the sence that you fill out form a and get results b. Infringement can happen on any of the methods your product uses, and its financally prohibitive to investigate / protect them all.
For software, i'm sure there would have to be changes, as volume wouldn't be controlled from the SONOS unit anymore, you can't just pump up the juice to the line out now can you ? So you would have to have the ability to exclude those units from 'group volume' etc .. not a big deal im sure, but its adding one more hump to the proverbial camel's programmed back.
as for manufacturing, its not like you can just leave the amp off the board, there are entire circuts that would most likely have to be removed, rerouted, and fail-safed. The days of transistor radios is long gone saddly. Lets assume that they are producing these units where every OTHER mass produced electronics devices are produced - somewhere in asia. [China is the current favorite for large companies, and this is what I am used to dealing with so I will use it as an example.]
[We are ignoring the possibility that SONOS's application for patents has the entire schematic for the device on file, which means they would have to file again, or risk potential infringement.]
To make a production run of .. lets say .. 50k 14.4 volt cordless drills, the time to tool up is maybe 30 days. This means laying out staff and equipment to produce circutboards, manual assembly of units, packaging etc.
Changes to a circut board - for example, to add a SIMPLE variable resistance loop to make the trigger more sensative, will raise costs several dollars a unit. This is caused by factors such as having to alter the circut boards (and thus having to alter the process to etch them.) Additional components, additional training for the staff [there are below minimum wage workers in a comunist country, not exactly a go-getter-free-thinking workforce.]
And this is if the changes don't modify the PHYSICAL housing of the drill. If that changes, its a whole new level of expensive pain.
[your average power drill has some 80 plastic / metal components in it that are specially made for that tool. just getting all these parts produced in quantity can be months of nightmare.]
Add Customer service into the list, which, by the way - is the LARGEST expense to any manufacturing business. Hence why a lot of it is moving to india.
There are a LOT of factors here.
To produce two models, that essentially do the same thing - would double, maybe even tripple their operating costs, inventory levels, and assets tied up in non moving (and taxable) inventory.
In a perfect world, yes, they would do this, and market it to another corner of the customers.
But let me put on my marketing hat now :
Why would I sell this to customers for less ? this is a product that the audophile would desire, not the entry level consumer that my existing product is targeted for. Audophiles pay upwards of $600 for Polk speakers .. EACH ..
If this product were targeted towards that audiance, why on earth would any MBA worth their salt not only devalue their existing product line, but cut into their profit, to sell a professional targeted product at BELOW entry level prices ?
Especially on a product that will sell less, take longer to turn, and isn't related to their immediate core business goals. Now ask yourself, when their closest competition in this area sells similar units for almost 3X the price of thier current model, where is the business sence in pricing your units so low ?
While i agree with you, in a perfect world, were SONOS not in this to be a profitable business, and if they didn't have shareholders and investors to report to - they might consider this an additional source of revenue, or a way to capture a bigger piece of the pie that is the home audio center market. Personally, I don't have any use for non-amp units, as I have recently moved - my old house was all pre-wired, and they would have been useful there for sure. Our new house is a much nicer layout, and i actually value the sonos for the ability to be put on a bookshelf, and NOT look like a stereo component. I don't want consumer electronics to dominate my living space, call me bourgeois, but I would rather leave that to the 'best buy' crowd.
So in a nutshell - yeah, I could see how this would have some limited market appeal, but it doesn't seem to fit with what I understand of SONOS's apparant master plan. What I see here are a lot of people asking SONOS for something that *MIGHT* get them to buy into their system, assuming they are not fickle, and just looking for excuses on not to spend the money. In my (overinflated 🙂 ) opinion, this ranks right up there with the suggestions of streaming video through the sonos, and my personal arch-nemisis : insisting that the PC should be its own zoneplayer. [which is physically POSSIBLE i suppose, just mechanically improbable.]
just my 2 cents, not telling anyone how to live their life - no personal shots on anyone here, only discussion.
110% agree on digital out!!!
and adding digout w/o an amp SHOULD lower the price. The amp would be a waste in a room with digout. Please don't 'just' add digout to the existing product.
I'd still buy the amp version for rooms w/o an existing system.
I think audiofiles would be pleased with the ampless/digout version and would commit to the sonos system for rooms requiring the amp version...eg the kitchen, patio, etc. The remote is awesome and the wireless mesh a nice bonus.
However, until then, I require digout and will be purchasing a Squeezbox while beefing up my NAS storage. I'll wait to see if squeezebox adds a better remote (ala sonos) or if Sonos adds ampless/digout before committing to either system for my whole home.
On a side note...if any Sonos people read this..its nice to see an SB company doing well. Its my hometown! I hope Rincon has been firing on all cyclinders and the crowds are lite!! 🙂
and adding digout w/o an amp SHOULD lower the price. The amp would be a waste in a room with digout. Please don't 'just' add digout to the existing product.
I'd still buy the amp version for rooms w/o an existing system.
I think audiofiles would be pleased with the ampless/digout version and would commit to the sonos system for rooms requiring the amp version...eg the kitchen, patio, etc. The remote is awesome and the wireless mesh a nice bonus.
However, until then, I require digout and will be purchasing a Squeezbox while beefing up my NAS storage. I'll wait to see if squeezebox adds a better remote (ala sonos) or if Sonos adds ampless/digout before committing to either system for my whole home.
On a side note...if any Sonos people read this..its nice to see an SB company doing well. Its my hometown! I hope Rincon has been firing on all cyclinders and the crowds are lite!! 🙂
Digital out is a must have.
An ampless option should be available too.
This months Stuff Magazine rates the Hermstedt Hifidelio as the winner against the Sonos and other products. Having used both products I can say that I prefer the Sonos System however the Hifidelio does offer some great functionality (alternative) that is missing in the Sonos system.
An ampless option should be available too.
This months Stuff Magazine rates the Hermstedt Hifidelio as the winner against the Sonos and other products. Having used both products I can say that I prefer the Sonos System however the Hifidelio does offer some great functionality (alternative) that is missing in the Sonos system.
On a side note...if any Sonos people read this..its nice to see an SB company doing well. Its my hometown! I hope Rincon has been firing on all cyclinders and the crowds are lite!! 🙂
There is a freight train of a WNW coming in that should light things up for the first half of the week. ... lite crowds at Rincon? you've been gone a while. 😉
have fun,
-graham
Your point is well taken, Buzz. Even with the slight tradeoff in audio quality, I still love my Sonos. My friends and family like it too, so much so that my sister and her husband just purchased the introductory bundle.
However a digital output could bring the system to a new level for us audiomaniacs.
I'd have to agree mostly with TCassio's first point. No need for a separate product simply to support S/PDIF. Most audio ASICs already expose the digital interface; it's just a matter of spinning the board design to support the connector to expose the interface at the back of the ZP. Cost reduction for de-featuring the analog amp is probably marginal and I'd rather have the option to remote a parallel set of speaker level outputs to another room than save ~$50 or so. Most REAL cost savings will come from market acceptance and economies of scale from high volume manufacturing. As an example, the Controller relies on an relatively expensive Xilinx FPGA chip as typically found in low volume high-end consumer electronics. Eventual replacement with a custom ASIC design will drive cost out when volumes justify the upfront cost of that approach. Only with volume can Sonos get the ZP closer to the sweet spot pricing for broader acceptance. So those interested in an ampless version mainly for cost reasons should focus on spreading the word on how good the system is to others!
Not sure if anyone from Sonos has commented on this topic (haven't read all the posts on this topic), but from Tom Garcia's review on ecoustics.com:
"For the audio purist, it would be advantageous to have a digital output to maintain a direct digital stream to their processor. After visiting Sonos’ facility and speaking with several of their engineers and representatives, I was informed that they are actively pursuing new products that will address many of the issues discussed in this section."
http://www.ecoustics.com/avrev/sonos
"For the audio purist, it would be advantageous to have a digital output to maintain a direct digital stream to their processor. After visiting Sonos’ facility and speaking with several of their engineers and representatives, I was informed that they are actively pursuing new products that will address many of the issues discussed in this section."
http://www.ecoustics.com/avrev/sonos
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