Zp 24/96


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Ability to play 24bit/96 files (like the competition: slimdevices transporter)

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You're sure of yourself! I knew when I posted you would have to respond with an answer like you did. But to post a statement this strong I didn't even expect from you. What is it you just have to defend Sonos till the end? It's a good product, but the best ever? There's more needed than bit perfect file transfer to get better sound.

I for one try to be curious of nature and have tried these products out in my own home on my own equipement. There are no wrong settings. Connected like you describe. Just a simple connection between the tested streamers and DAC. And I also try to leave room for other peoples' believes. As I am allright with it that you believe there's no difference between these systems.

But if that makes you happy I will leave this discussion be, for it is a clear as crystal that you do not want to hear anything critical about Sonos. Why still eludes me, but for the sake of it, let's by any means stop this discussion. It's obvious that when you cannot hear the difference, there's no question in your mind you're right and everybody else is wrong, so wrong. Well enjoy your bit perfect and supreme Sonos equipement that can never be bettered.



As you can tell from other posts here, your experience is unique. Could it ever be that because science states it is not possible for there to be differences, that you are unable to describe a mechanism for the differences outside of "more needed than bit perfect file transfer to get better sound" (a highly technical explanation if I've ever heard one) and, on top of that, all others who tested the exact same scenario agree with me, that maybe . . . just maybe . . . it is you who are wrong?

And I never said Sonos can never be bettered - Strawman argument. I simply said that the Sonos Connect is bit-perfect, so any differences you are hearing are not due to the Sonos output. Sonos can be improved in many ways, but the output from the Connect cannot, unless you are looking for better than "perfect?"

[quote]Ignorence is bliss.[/[/quote]

Truer words were never spoken.
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Who cares about "can you hear a difference" or "what is better or not" and let's just look at the simple fact that a lot of people have a lot of 24/96 (or higher res) files that we want to play over our Sonos. So, just support the damn files already.
Who cares about "can you hear a difference" or "what is better or not" and let's just look at the simple fact that a lot of people have a lot of 24/96 (or higher res) files that we want to play over our Sonos. So, just support the damn files already.

The fact is, Sonos has formerly announced they are not going to support 24/96. Period. If you don't care about "can you hear a difference" or "what is better or not" then I suggest you resample the files to 16/44.1 and be done with it. You can very easily do this via any number of free programs. If resampling your files is too much of a chore, I suggest you take their announcement that they are not going to support 24/96 as gospel and begin your search for a replacement system which supports 24/96. Good luck finding one with the quality, reliability, and support of Sonos . . . all because of the stubborn refusal to resample the few files you have.
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The few files I' have? Glad you know what I have and don't have. And glad you're happy passing the buck onto the customer rather than supporting what a lot of people are asking for.

Arrogance at its best. Because that's exactly what it is. To make the argument that "oh, it's easy to convert some files". You're right, it is... but that doesn't mean we should have to.

And, just to clarify, I can hear a difference. The fact that you can't doesn't make it so. I'd happily invite you to my home to listen and hear the clear difference.
The few files I' have? Glad you know what I have and don't have. And glad you're happy passing the buck onto the customer rather than supporting what a lot of people are asking for.

Arrogance at its best. Because that's exactly what it is. To make the argument that "oh, it's easy to convert some files". You're right, it is... but that doesn't mean we should have to.

And, just to clarify, I can hear a difference. The fact that you can't doesn't make it so. I'd happily invite you to my home to listen and hear the clear difference.


A carefully crafted, peer-reviewed study also proved that people cannot hear the difference between 24/96 files and their resampled 16/44.1 versions. I'll take peer-reviewed studies over placebo induced anecdotal claims of "golden ear" types any day. Oh, and one who claims to hear things that scientific studies have proven impossible to hear should take a moment to consider the irony of calling other people "arrogant."
The few files I' have? Glad you know what I have and don't have. And glad you're happy passing the buck onto the customer rather than supporting what a lot of people are asking for.

Arrogance at its best. Because that's exactly what it is. To make the argument that "oh, it's easy to convert some files". You're right, it is... but that doesn't mean we should have to.

And, just to clarify, I can hear a difference. The fact that you can't doesn't make it so. I'd happily invite you to my home to listen and hear the clear difference.

Leaving aside for a moment the issue of whether the difference is audible (and those in the know maintain it either isn't or could even sound worse), it's not just a question of magically turning on hi-res decode in the Players. Stream bandwidth would increase by a factor of 3 (or 6 in the case of 24/192), and SonosNet isn't going to cope with that while continuing to support 32 Players. Sure, one could wire everywhere, but it hardly fits with "The Wireless HiFi System".
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A carefully crafted, peer-reviewed study also proved that people cannot hear the difference between 24/96 files and their resampled 16/44.1 versions. I'll take peer-reviewed studies over placebo induced anecdotal claims of "golden ear" types any day. Oh, and one who claims to hear things that scientific studies have proven impossible to hear should take a moment to consider the irony of calling other people "arrogant."

First you tell me how few files I have then you tell me what I can and can't hear.

Doesn't sound like arrogance at all.
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Stream bandwidth would increase.

Yes... it's too bad wifi speeds have topped out and faster wifi will never come along.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11

But, why be ready.
How does faster WiFi technology help my existing Sonos players? Hint: it doesn't. Sonos doesn't use WiFi, but as a Sonos owner, you already know that.

The flac conversion takes seconds. Yes, in total, it will take time, especially if the files are spread out through your library. If that amount of time isn't worth it, then don't do the conversion and continue to play them on whatever non-Sonos player you like.

They're not going to play on your Sonos, whether you can hear a difference, whether it takes time to convert, or whether you get a faster router. It is what it is.
Yes... it's too bad wifi speeds have topped out and faster wifi will never come along.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11

But, why be ready.

A significant architectural overhaul, incompatible with the 2.5+ million units out there, for unproven technical reasons and to cater for a niche (hires) of a niche (lossless) of the market? Sonos appear to have more sense of where their business opportunities lie.
First you tell me how few files I have then you tell me what I can and can't hear.

Doesn't sound like arrogance at all.


I didn't tell you what you can or cannot hear, I merely quoted a scientific study which proved, using trained listeners, that there are no differences heard when downsampled from hires. You very well may hear a difference. Whether those differences are due to a superior master which will sound the same in 16/44, or your Superman/Bionic Woman style golden ears, has yet to be determined.
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A significant architectural overhaul, incompatible with the 2.5+ million units out there, for unproven technical reasons and to cater for a niche (hires) of a niche (lossless) of the market? Sonos appear to have more sense of where their business opportunities lie.

That would be about the same argument for Ferrari not to make cars given the larger market of Hyundai buyers.
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That would be about the same argument for Ferrari not to make cars given the larger market of Hyundai buyers.

No it wouldn't. It WOULD be the same as Ford saying they're going to abandon mass-market consumer cars and only make $300,000 supercars from now on though.
That would be about the same argument for Ferrari not to make cars given the larger market of Hyundai buyers.

Actually, that indicates that ferrari has a market, and so does hyundai... or any other mass market manufacturer. Not everybody can make the ferrari, bentley, lambo, etc... nor does everybody want one.

While I understand that it would be nice to have a single player that plays all... it could be worse, you could be dealing with apple limitations instead. The borg said it best... "you will be assimilated."

While I have the majority of the collection as mp3's, I can tell when they've had a better source. However, does that really take away from the enjoyment... not at all. I would rather have more options stored on my current disk space availability. If I wanted more.... just get more storage. Hard drives are cheap.... just have different collections for different players and be done with it.
No it wouldn't. It WOULD be the same as Ford saying they're going to abandon mass-market consumer cars and only make $300,000 supercars from now on though.

Analogy fail.

Your argument is that Hyundai should start building supercars, even though it may compromise the performance and reliability of their mass-market segment, and despite Hyundai's insistence they have no plans to build such a vehicle.

Next.
Why isn't there noise now about the need for 24/192? 96 is so passé.

And 48/384 is on the way.
Why isn't there noise now about the need for 24/192? 96 is so passé.

And 48/384 is on the way.


PS: All of this takes me back a decade, where I was selling building automation controllers. We had a 16 bit marvel compared to the 8 bit one the competition had. And our challenge was to get the spec to say 16 bit, because that was the latest and greatest. Looking back, it was a wasted part of my life. No one should have cared how many bits, all that was required was did the widget do the job, and was it reliable in service. But consultants wanted to be convinced to appear to be state of the art before a customer, and we encouraged that nonsense. Just to find another hook to differentiate. What did it matter if the customer truly needed the "feature".
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Analogy fail.

Your argument is that Hyundai should start building supercars, even though it may compromise the performance and reliability of their mass-market segment, and despite Hyundai's insistence they have no plans to build such a vehicle.

Next.


How is that any different to what I said, in principle (I swapped Hyundai for Ford because Ford sells more cars, same as Sonos sells more units than anyone else)?

To support hi-res Sonos would have to abandon their core market. The same as if a mass-market car maker decided to only sell ultra-expensive supercars. Seems to be pretty much the same thing to me.
The human mind is a remarkable and wonderful thing. We receive inputs through our senses and our mind makes sense of it all, coloured by preconceptions, experience and sometimes, knowledge.

I "know" that credible, repeatable, non-biased, objective studies show that 24/96 and the like is pointless and possibly detrimental. But I don't feel that gives me the right to criticise or ridicule someone whose perceptions tell them otherwise.

My brother in law has just upgraded his speaker wires, going from an eye-watering £60 a foot to nearly £200 a foot. He now talks of "increased openness", "3d sound", "enhanced soundstage" etc. I "know" he's deluding himself and he's hearing what he wants to hear. But does that matter? Who am I to tell him otherwise and potentially spoil his obvious enjoyment?

Hi-res fans hear what they hear. They're surely entitled to believe what they believe. However, Sonos has decided not to support hi-res (which I personally think is sensible) so any further argument is rather moot isn't it?
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My brother in law has just upgraded his speaker wires, going from an eye-watering £60 a foot to nearly £200 a foot. He now talks of "increased openness", "3d sound", "enhanced soundstage" etc. I "know" he's deluding himself and he's hearing what he wants to hear.

It doesn't always work like that though, I used to work with a guy who used to spend every penny of his (pretty meagre) salary on hi-fi, he had a pair of custom built non-expanded polystyrene speaker cabinets which took a month for the glue to cure, never mind the rest of the manhours for the build, with a single aluminium driver (small, these were near-field monitors, not designed for massive bass, although, bizarrely, he only listened to Detroit Techno...), he had a completely isolated power feed, just for the hi-fi, which consisted of a MASSIVE Wadia CD player (can't remember the model it was a while ago but it was significantly bigger than most AV receivers) and an equally enormous amp.

Anyway, one day he decided to upgrade the interconnect, 1m cable, cost him £1200, so you'd expect placebo to be in full effect. He didn't like it, said it ruined the sound, so he swapped it out for a "cheaper" £600 cable, which he much preferred. So if it's all in your head, why did he react like that?
But I don't feel that gives me the right to criticise or ridicule someone whose perceptions tell them otherwise.
This forum is for the discussion of possible future Sonos developments.

The criticism wasn't about an individual's perceptions -- which they're perfectly entitled to -- it was in response to the "just support the damn files already" imperative.
My comments (deliberately) weren't aimed at any one person or post. This is a very long thread but you don't have to go very far back to see that many comments within it do indeed question and criticise other people's perceptions and beliefs.

Which is quite healthy unless and until it becomes personal or bad tempered.
My comments (deliberately) weren't aimed at any one person or post. This is a very long thread but you don't have to go very far back to see that many comments within it do indeed question and criticise other people's perceptions and beliefs.

Which is quite healthy unless and until it becomes personal or bad tempered.

Absolutely, and of course ad hominem attacks are not permitted.

However posts which point out the effect of bias and placebo; which highlight the science and controlled tests; which observe that hires content often sounds better simply due to more careful mastering; and which note that the HiFi industry is always keen to up-sell to the 'latest and greatest' are all valid arguments.

Unfortunately it seems that for true believers in hires it's a tenet of faith which no amount of evidence can dislodge. That's fine and they're entitled to their beliefs. In the opinion of many, however, hires is a distraction and Sonos have wisely ruled it out for now.
How is that any different to what I said...

Arrrrggghh. I quoted the wrong post. I meant to hit the Ferrari one.
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Who cares about "can you hear a difference" or "what is better or not" and let's just look at the simple fact that a lot of people have a lot of 24/96 (or higher res) files that we want to play over our Sonos. So, just support the damn files already.

+1 on this from me. I've got a bunch of (completely legal) concerts that encoded using 24 bit. I can play them on foobar, but not Sonos.

Seems silly to me (but then, I haven't read all 67 pages of this thread to see if there's a real technical limitation).

Would really like to avoid having to downsample a whole bunch of flac files.