Sonos Amp and real low-level support for subwoofer?

B
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I really wish the Sonos Amp software would support true low-level output for subwoofer and not just LFE like today. I would like to use the crossover filter on my sub instead of the filter in the Amp. I’d like to send full range to my front speakers even with a sub connected, as my fronts can go a lot deeper than the 50 Hz which is the minimum crossover in the Amp settings. The filter in the Amp also color the sound pretty badly. I don’t know what kind processing it does, but the sound gets bright and muddy.

Since the Amp is a product not aimed at the most average consumer, but someone with at least slightly higher demand on sound quality, I really think the option to bypass the built-in filter of the Amp should  be enabled. You don’t need to be an audiophile to appreciate that.

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16 replies

K

If your sub can take high level outputs from the amp speaker terminals, you can use these.

B
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If your sub can take high level outputs from the amp speaker terminals, you can use these.

That was my primary plan, and what the sub manufacturer (Rel) recommends, but i’m getting an annoying hum that I can’t get rid of. Grounding the sub to the amp got rid of the loud low frequency hum, but there’s still a more high pitched hum left, which I don’t get when I connect low level.

K

I had a quick look at the linked thread that discusses the hum issue with REL/Sonos. It may give some useful suggestions, but not fully conclusive I suspect. Worth a look:

 

https://en.community.sonos.com/components-228996/sonos-amp-and-high-level-input-from-subwooder-6822917/index3.html

K

From the link: try connecting the REL Sub to a power socket that does not have an earth jack.

B
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From the link: try connecting the REL Sub to a power socket that does not have an earth jack.

Yup, I’ve tried both grounded- and non-grounded power outlets. I also read the entire thread you linked to and I have spoken to Rel support and my grounding should be correctly set up. I even tried Rel’s wireless module that is also connected via high level. Then ground is not applicable since there’s no galvanic connection between Amp and sub, but the high pitched hum is still there.

K

I don’t see Sonos taking time to implement a bypassable filter for the sub out. So if the hum does not go, and you must have a Sub, another amp that does not cause hum may be the only option. If you still want a Sonos front end, adding a Port to such an amp would be the way to go then.

Or, try a sub from some other make than REL.

B
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I don’t see Sonos taking time to implement a bypassable filter for the sub out. So if the hum does not go, and you must have a Sub, another amp that does not cause hum may be the only option. If you still want a Sonos front end, adding a Port to such an amp would be the way to go then.

Or, try a sub from some other make than REL.

Yes, I’m considering both options. I chose the Sonos Amp over a Port + traditional amp for the small footprint and ease of use (this is my living room/family stereo setup), but there’s obviously some trade-offs. I might try another sub brand, like an SVS, to see if it works better, it’s just and that I’m using this 100% for music and the Rel integrates fantastically with my main speakers. But sometimes you just can’t get it all. :)

K

In your place I would even reconsider the presence of the Sub itself, if the main speakers go down as low as you say they do. But if you must have one, integration is all important where music is concerned, so another amp of small footprint? And why must you have Sonos at all, unless you want to integrate with other rooms?

B
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I have small bookshelf speakers (Guru Junior) that can go very low for its size (34 Hz at -6 db). But I would still like a bit of more bottom in the low end. And yes, my living room is part of a multi room setup.

I can of course live without the sub, it just sounds fuller and better with it. Not sure it’s worth the cost of the sub itself AND a new amplifier though. Will need to think about it for a while.

K

I have small bookshelf speakers (Guru Junior) that can go very low for its size (34 Hz at -6 db). But I would still like a bit of more bottom in the low end. And yes, my living room is part of a multi room setup.

 

That actually isn't very low...more relevant is the -3dB number which may well be in the region of 50Hz. I assume you have tried using the Sonos amp Sub out into the low level input on the REL, with the crossover on the amp set to 50Hz. What do you find lacking in that configuration?

B
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I have small bookshelf speakers (Guru Junior) that can go very low for its size (34 Hz at -6 db). But I would still like a bit of more bottom in the low end. And yes, my living room is part of a multi room setup.

 

That actually isn't very low...more relevant is the -3dB number which may well be in the region of 50Hz. I assume you have tried using the Sonos amp Sub out into the low level input on the REL, with the crossover on the amp set to 50Hz. What do you find lacking in that configuration?

Soundstage becomes slightly closed in and overall sound is brighter. Sub integration doesn’t feel very natural, and while I do get more sub bass, the upper bass frequency sounds like it’s cancelled out, I actually loose punch (haven’t measured this since I don’t have recording gear, but feels like there’s a dip somewhere around the 100 hz mark). Tried to reverse the phase but it doesn’t help. I also feel like sound lacks in clarity compared to when I run the sub with high level connection. I also tried connecting a Sonos Sub to the the Amp to see if that integrates better, but the result was similar.

As for the frequency response of the Guru Juniors, -6 db @ 34 hz is the guaranteed spec, but it can go lower than that when set up properly. These speakers are designed to sit very close to the wall and utilize the room acoustics to enhance the lower frequency response. I have never heard a passive loudspeaker with such a small footprint and elements go as low. But still, the physical limitations cannot be overlooked.

K

The other inconvenient truth is that even if placement in the ideal location in the room is inconvenient, coming to a conclusion on either the Sub or the Amp with the Sub not placed in this location can be misleading. I assume that you are familiar with the sub crawl method of identifying the ideal location in the room which starts with the usually very inconvenient act of placing the sub in the listening position to play bass heavy music.

You then crawl - to be at the same height as where the sub would be placed permanently - around the room to see where the bass sounds best. And where it sounds best is the ideal location for the sub. Where that is inconvenient, look for places that are convenient to locate the sub, but pick one from those where the bass sounds better than the other places and hopefully not too far away in sound quality from how it sounds in the inconvenient butideal location. That one place is where the sub should be placed.

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Yes, I guess sub placement could result in different results depending on if I use high level with the sub’s filter or low level with the Amp’s filter. Rel subs are designed to stand in the corners to maximize room pressure and that’s where I found the best result when using the high level connection at least. Didn’t try to move it to another location when using low level but I guess it could be worth a try. I would be surprised if it solved all the issues I listed above though. :)

K



As for the frequencey response of the Guru Juniors, -6 db @ 34 hz is the guranteed spec, but it can go lower than that when set up properly. 

The thing here is that at -6dB, very little of the 34hz sounds are being heard compared to the other sounds that the speaker is producing. And of course the speaker will go down even further, even up to 10 hz perhaps before that sound disappears completely. It is a slope and not a cut off.

The spec for -3dB will give a more accurate sense what low frequencies can be really heard/felt before they start losing energy and become less and less audible.

K

 I would be surprised if it solved all the issues I listed above though. :)

I would be surprised if the sound isn't significantly better in the ideal location based on the crawl. The problem is that it may not be a convenient place to place the sub.

B
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 I would be surprised if it solved all the issues I listed above though. :)

I would be surprised if the sound isn't significantly better in the ideal location based on the crawl. The problem is that it may not be a convenient place to place the sub.

Yes, but what I meant is that I found it to sound best in the corner when using the high level connection.

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