Dealing with HDMI ARC issues on Amp and input choices

T
Badge +2

I have an Amp hooked up to our living room TV in our house. (I also have a home theater setup using Sonos in our barn/guest house with the big screen TV.) I’m really fed up with the Amp, after any blackout or power flicker, losing all settings. I’ve been using regular stereo audio input pulled from an HDMI switcher to feed the Amp. Whenever we get a power flicker, my Sonos devices lose their groupings and settings. (Which, really, is pretty sad considering that pretty much any device, in 2021, can save such settings in non-volatile RAM - except the high priced Sonos!)

Every time we start up the TV and there’s been a power flicker (which we often don’t know has happened), we get silence. So, instead of using my IR all-in-one remote, I have to pull out my phone and run the Sonos controller and change the Amp input BACK to “Line In,” where I always leave it. What’s amazing (and sad) is that this system is on a UPS. Everything on that UPS keeps behaving normally during an outage or power flicker, but the Amp still loses it’s input setting. (We have a full house generator - if power is totally out, within 40 seconds the generator kicks in and restores power. With a UPS and the generator, this Amp is never without power - yet it’s so sensitive that after a power flicker, it loses settings!)

So, first, it’s really small of Sonos to not have a way to store a setting like that.

Second is a bigger issue. I took the output from the HDMI switcher and ran it into a splitter so I could run one HDMI cable to the projection TV and one to the Sonos Amp. Simple solution, right?

Nope. Then Sonos says, “No arc, gotta fix it.” I’m using equipment that supposedly uses ARC, but I don’t see why it’s needed, since the audio comes from my Apple TV and my Sony BD player. All Sonos has to do is read the audio signal off the HDMI cable.

I want to eliminate this continual pain in the rear. My wife hates, and I mean HATES having to change the Sonos Amp inputs if she wants to watch TV by herself whenever this has happened. I find it an annoyance that, on any kind of up-to-date system in 2021, shouldn’t exist.

I would like to be able to do one of the following, in order of preference:

  1. Just hook the HDMI cable from the HDMI splitter to the Amp and not have to deal with ARC and just use the normal audio from the Apple TV or Sony BD player. Both output audio on HDMI, so sound coming back from the TV is really not a problem.
  2. Keep the “Line In” setting all the time, so it’s not lost every time there’s a power flicker or outage.
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66 replies

buzz

The SONOS ARC accepts only HDMI-ARC audio or HDMI-eARC audio. Therefore, it’s a reasonable assumption that the SONOS dongle creates HDMI-ARC audio from TOSLINK. I guess the SONOS support agent is being strictly correct in stating that the dongle does not create a full HDMI-ARC because HDMI-ARC is a two-way connection, but TOSLINK is only one-way audio.

Again, HDMI-ARC audio uses a different set of pins in the cable from legacy HDMI. Unless the hardware path exists to access the other set of pins, there is no chance for a software upgrade to suddenly start flipping between HDMI audio and HDMI-ARC audio.

The SONOS dongle is a very simple device. ARCANA is rather complex because it deals with full video, EDID, and CEC.

melvimbe

 

As Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote (roughly) words are a sign of natural facts. That doesn’t mean they’re always the exact description, after all, a rose could go by any other name. No, I’m not hung up on the word or name for this device other than that I go for a convenient word that I can use to label a specific object. In programming, basically, I’m passing by reference. While I used to each English and could go on at length about when a word is important and when it isn’t, I could also, since I was a special ed teacher, go on at length about word finding issues and learning disabilities that create word finding issues for people. I’m one of them, so thank you very much for making me dump that out and making part of the conversation about my learning disability.

 

I  did not make you dump anything or force you to talk about learning disabilities whatsoever.

 

While I’m dealing with this issue, I’m dealing with a few quite stressful issues for the house and our lot. When I get stressed, I don’t sleep well and get tired. When that happens this issue comes up and gets worse. I can say, “Please have a seat in the ---- uh….” and someone will have to help me with the word “Chair.” Today I was talking to someone about replacing a leaking tub and couldn’t remember the word “Tub” until she said it.

So when I can easily and quickly “grab” a word for whatever reason, and use it as a label, and it’s not inaccurate, I use it.

Dongle.

It’s a dongle. It’s an adaptor. I don’t care what you call it, it’s still cable with a TOSLink connector at one end and an HDMI connector at the other end.

So freaking thank you for making this part of the conversation when it’s clear exactly what I’m referring to and any dwelling on that was not necessary.

 

 

Again, you’re the one opening up this topic.  My whole point was that regardless of whether you call t an adapter or dongle, it is what it is.  Whether the phrase ‘generate ARC signal’ is technically accurate...don’t know and don’t care. Using the device as described will resolve your connection issue.

 



Generating ARC - I’ve plugged an HDMI connector into the AMP and received an error when I tried to use it. It stated, clearly, that there was no ARC signal and that it needed configuration. Then, as I went on, it asked about the TV and the ARC signal. I don’t remember the terms, but it was quite clear, in the setup it was having me do, that I had to provide it with an ARC signal.

So MAYBE that dongle, Dongle, DONGLE works. Maybe it doesn’t. We’ll know know that when I get it.

 

 

I already know that it works.

 

Oh, by the way, did I point out that one Sonos employee here did NOT suggest it as a solution? Did I point out that one tech support guy said it was NOT the solution?

So I made the logical conclusion in the face of those points.

We’ll soon see if it’s right. But when TWO employees (granted, one is an idiot) say it’s NOT the solution, when the configuration tells me it needs ARC because I can't continue until there’s an ARC signal, and the one employee in the conversation does not even bring it up as a solution, does it make sense why it doesn’t seem like a solution?

 

 

I wasn’t there for your conversations on the phone with Sonos employees.  I don’t know what was said, if there were any miscommunications, or if the tech support you talked to simply didn’t know what he was talking about.  I am to surprised that Sonos hasn’t chimed in again on this thread, as they typically don’t when others have provided a solution.

 

 

 

 

Arcana takes a normal HDMI input and converts it to HDMI-eARC (or ARC apparently), while also sending video to a display, and quite a few other features that aren’t relevant for this discussion.  The dongle/adapter  allows an optical audio signal to be processed by the Amp.  Two entirely different things.  You’ve seen the product description  and features for Arcana, and even if the features don’t make sense to you, it should give you some sort of understanding why Arcana costs so much more.

 

You’re saying that when a converter takes the electrical signal and converts it into light, then, at the other end, it’s converted back to electrical, that the data on the output end is not the same as on the input end? Or that the data, when carried through an optical connector is not the same as the data in the HDMI connector?

I find that extremely hard to follow, so I’d really appreciate a breakdown on it.

 

No, I’ll pass. I’ve already spent enough of my time trying to help you out, and you honestly haven’t been very respectful of that.  You have stated that you doubt I’m telling you the truth, and accused me of causing you some sort of mental anguish.  I have no doubt that when your dongle arrives in the mail, once you set it up correctly, you’ll be all set.

Danny
Ken_Griffiths

@TangoMe,

As you use iDevices, like iPad, perhaps take a look at the Soro App - I assume as a former developer you may understand the workings of iOS shortcuts. The Soro App will allow you to setup the Amp to use the line-in, to group rooms as required, set EQ and volume levels etc. See attached mock-up screenshot that I’ve just created to show you just some of the many features/settings the App can use via the Sonos API. 

Once the instructions/settings have been constructed into the shortcut, it can be saved as a package, which can be made to run through a variety of triggers, including a schedule, a saved icon on the iDevice, or any HomeKit automation including powering on a light, activating a sensor etc.

It means you could perhaps put the shortcut icon on any/every iDevice and a simple click on the icon would setup/reinstate the Amps line-in/grouping/volume/EQ settings automatically - no more having to spend time configuring those settings again. Anyhow see attached ‘example’ screenshot.

I will just add I’m not affiliated with the Soro App, other than I use the App myself, but it does require the user to understand the basic workings of iOS shortcuts. 

Anyhow I think the App is worth exploring further and hope it perhaps helps you to address many of your needs mentioned in the first part of your opening post in this thread.. 
 

1 Attachment
Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi all, this topic has strayed quite far from the original problem statement, and I believe that we’re moving in a direction that isn’t helping anyone. Using the adaptor to convert optical to HDMI for the Amp and using an Arcana to create an ARC signal have been suggested - as @melvimbe mentioned earlier, Line-In is not intended for TV viewing due to the delay induced. @Tangome, please investigate those suggestions, and if they won’t work as intended, or there’s something you don’t understand, feel free to start a new topic, as I’m closing this one now.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
buzz

Legacy HDMI and HDMI-ARC use different pins on the connector for audio. Legacy HDMI sends audio to the display device, the HDMI-ARC channel accepts audio from the display device. HDMI-eARC is simply a more modern, more capable version of HDMI-ARC. eARC is required for advanced audio formats, such as Atmos. It doesn’t matter if the SONOS dongle supports eARC or not because TOSLINK (optical) does not support the bandwidth required for the eARC advanced audio functions.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

I'd put it more mildly: Sonos made choices that (they think) work best for their audience ("has money, but no technical knowledge and is not about to get that"). So they've tried to make things as simple as possible. When it is not simple anymore their audience is lost, for instance when something's awry on the wifi front. If this simplicity does not work for you, you're not part of the Sonos audience.

The Arc is meant to work with a TV and only a few connected devices. You want to connect more devices and work with a projector. I very much understand you want Sonos too, but maybe you want to much and so need to look elsewhere.

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @TangoMe 

I’m sure you won’t like me being pedantic, but Best Answers are not Solutions. Very often, the Best Answer is to call technical support, which is not a Solution.

Regarding the Amp, I refer you back to my initial statement:

Finally, if you feel that there is some kind of fault with the Amp, I recommend you get in touch with our technical support team.

And regarding settings and “states”, I completely understand your points. With AutoPlay enabled, the input is determined, not remembered. With AutoPlay disabled, the Amp will start in a state of “no music selected” - no queue, no input selected. I can treat this as a feature request but as AutoPlay should take care of this for you, I wouldn’t expect to see changes any time soon. A ground-loop isolator should sort out AutoPlay functionality for you. 

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
T
Badge +2

Wow.  I don’t know what your conversation was like with tech support, but you’ve been given the solution to your problem several times now but you seem to keep trying to convince yourself that it won’t work.

Do you mean the dongle? If I believed the dongle would work, I’d get it, but the idiot said no and the person I got through a video chat (you see them, they don’t see you - interesting!) said that it does NOT create an ARC signal. It will pass an ARC signal along, if one is available at the optical end, but it won’t create it.

Why does the support document for setting up the Amp state the following?

When using Amp as front TV speakers, check your TV’s HDMI ports to confirm that your TV supports HDMI-ARC. If your TV doesn’t have an HDMI-ARC port, you will need an optical audio adapter to complete TV Setup.

That is the FIRST point I’ve seen that says it generates ARC. But what bothers me now is the page says so and tech support says no. Note that before I called tech support, it was discussed at length here and nobody had reason to believe this adaptor generated an ARC signal. This is the first source that says it does.

Note, also, that we had a Sonos employee checking in on this conversation earlier and he did not suggest this as a solution.

With those points in mind, I think I have reason to be skeptical.

I’m going to go on and order it, but I suspect that what they mean is if there’s an SPDIF port for output instead of HDMI. My reason is that we can see Arcana is $200, and this is $25, and I doubt Sonos (or anyone) would do this in that small a space (smaller than an Arcana box by far) and charge so little for that. Also, as I said, the smart tech support person said it can’t do that. (I don’t care what the idiot said!)

The good news is that Crutchfield has these in stock, which means I’ll get next-day service (they’re really close - great company and people to deal with and everyone knows their stuff!). Even better, I cashed in some of my reward points and it’ll be here Thursday.

 

Side note: I looked through several sources to see if there are any products other than Arcana that generate an ARC signal. I saw products on Amazon that say, “We don’t generate ARC, you need Arcana.” I found Arcana on Amazon for $299! It sells at $199 from the website normally and lower if you buy more than one.

melvimbe

Wow.  I don’t know what your conversation was like with tech support, but you’ve been given the solution to your problem several times now but you seem to keep trying to convince yourself that it won’t work.

Do you mean the dongle? If I believed the dongle would work, I’d get it, but the idiot said no and the person I got through a video chat (you see them, they don’t see you - interesting!) said that it does NOT create an ARC signal. It will pass an ARC signal along, if one is available at the optical end, but it won’t create it.

 

 

You’re getting too hung up on words  Dongle...adapter...whatever.  The device that has been referenced several times, and it looks like you’ve now purchased is the answer.    As I stated before, I wouldn’t say that the dongle/adapter generates or creates an ARC signal either,  What it does is allow you to convert the audio coming through an optical cable to something that the Amp can read and process.

 

Why does the support document for setting up the Amp state the following?

When using Amp as front TV speakers, check your TV’s HDMI ports to confirm that your TV supports HDMI-ARC. If your TV doesn’t have an HDMI-ARC port, you will need an optical audio adapter to complete TV Setup.

That is the FIRST point I’ve seen that says it generates ARC. But what bothers me now is the page says so and tech support says no. Note that before I called tech support, it was discussed at length here and nobody had reason to believe this adaptor generated an ARC signal. This is the first source that says it does.

Note, also, that we had a Sonos employee checking in on this conversation earlier and he did not suggest this as a solution.

With those points in mind, I think I have reason to be skeptical.

 

 

You’re skeptical because your hung up specific words, probably not asking the right questions on your call to tech support or confusing them by asking about generating an ARC signal rather than asking if the dongle/adapter will resolve your issue.  The quote I provided doesn’t even mention the word ‘generate’, yet you’ve chosen to decide that it does.

 

I’m going to go on and order it, but I suspect that what they mean is if there’s an SPDIF port for output instead of HDMI. My reason is that we can see Arcana is $200, and this is $25, and I doubt Sonos (or anyone) would do this in that small a space (smaller than an Arcana box by far) and charge so little for that. Also, as I said, the smart tech support person said it can’t do that. (I don’t care what the idiot said!)

 

 

Arcana takes a normal HDMI input and converts it to HDMI-eARC (or ARC apparently), while also sending video to a display, and quite a few other features that aren’t relevant for this discussion.  The dongle/adapter  allows an optical audio signal to be processed by the Amp.  Two entirely different things.  You’ve seen the product description  and features for Arcana, and even if the features don’t make sense to you, it should give you some sort of understanding why Arcana costs so much more.

 

 

 

 

 

Danny
T
Badge +2

The dongle (actually an optical to HDMI-ARC converter) will, via your switch, create an HDMI-ARC signal from non-ARC sources. It is not “the same as when I used a splitter to take my normal HDMI out and run one cable to the TV and one to the AMP”. In this respect is is comparable to the Arcana: getting the sound signal from your source to the Amp using the right pins (ARC) on the HDMI connector (so at least partly not a software but a hardware solution). To me it looks like you need this.

 

This is my HDMI switch, which does have an ARC button on it, but it doesn’t generate ARC signals and my TV does not. So if I get the dongle, for it to work, it’d have to create an ARC signal by itself. The reason I’m trying to nail that down is because it’s a $25 product compared to Arcana, at $200.

 

I do still think you expect too much from Sonos. Sonos is probaly not “being exclusionary when there’s no need to be” but has made a choice. If it would be easy to cater to the projector crowd, Sonos would do this. Sonos has chosen differently, probably because it is not easy tot do and/or they see no commercial prompt to do so.

If Sonos were a cheap or low priced product, I could see that reasoning much more easily, but for the price, being able to take a direct input that is ARC or not (or adding a 2nd HDMI) is not that unreasonable. A digital incoming audio signal is being processed. If HDMI source is coming into the AMP, then there are digital signals there that can be listened to with just the normal HDMI signal, from the same connector. If my switch, under $100, can extract the audio from a normal HDMI signal, it’s rather silly, or even lame, that that the AMP can’t do the same and is limited to ARC.

This isn’t about “catering” to a crowd. It’s about including an option that would make sense in the first place. Again, if a switch for a much lower price can extra audio from normal HDMI, why is it impossible for the AMP to do that?

 

If you exdpect this, Sonos is maybe not for you.

Honestly, I’ve always thought that comment, on pretty much any product, is a lazy and closed-minded thing to say. But then again, most products and companies, in my experience, are more about finding solutions than saying, to people spending a lot of money, “We have no desire to make things work here.” I’m not trying to start an argument, but it’s a far cry from an attitude of, “How can this product benefit this person.”

I’ve made it quite clear I’d be quite satisfied if the AMP would remember it’s on Line-In and not drop that setting (excuse me - state - I’m expected to keep track of what is a setting and what is a state!) at odd times. (I originally thought it was power flickers, even with a UPS, that led to that state change, but it’s happening even when we don’t have flickers.) I’ve brought up the price quite a bit. For a $700 product to keep track of some settings and states and not others, which makes things confusing for the user, is poor design. How is a user supposed to know, without coming here and being told, the difference between a setting and a state? And how is a user supposed to keep up with what settings or states get dropped at times and which don’t?

Is it acceptable that a product beyond the $20 range can’t maintain a setting from one use to the next? Out of the two options I’m looking at here, the simplest one is just being able to expect an expensive device to keep track of settings once they’re set. I don’t see how such an expectation would make Sonos not be for me.

As for ARC, well, considering that Line In means taking the analog output from the switch and running it to AMP, when ARC will take the same digital signal from the switch and run it to the AMP, so the AMP gets the original audio signal, I don’t see why there’s an issue with me trying to find a way to do that if possible.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

You are right about the dongle. It does not make an ARC signal where there isn’t one in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.

I do not disagree with you on the Amp losing the Line-in. This seems to be an (as yet unexplained?) fault, especially when it occurs without even a power failure.

As for HDMI-ARC. Sonos made a few choices when designing their HDMI-enabled soundbars. Most important choice was to work with HDMI-ARC and nothing else. They have stayed with this choice since. They must have had good technical or commercial reasons for this choice in the first place and they have seen no reason for a change on this in the last couple of years, for which they also must have good reasons. You are confronted with one of the disadvantages of this choice: you have no ARC capable TV. You have the absolute right to try and find a solution for this. But you should not blame Sonos for sticking to their original design choice. If there would be any commercial benefit in this, Sonos would have done it. Since they haven’t I do not think you have the right to complain about it just because devices are a bit expensive. You can ask them kindly to change their design, but if they do not do that they must have good reasons for it: it is not a technically or commercially viable option. If it does not work for you then it really is “take it or leave it”. There is nothing no other choice.

buzz

TangoMe,

As a quick test have you tried using the PLAYBAR optical to HDMI converter with AMP?

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

As I understand it @TangoMe  uses a switch that has an optical out but no attached sources that provide ARC. I doubt that this will work.

buzz

For example, it does see that some devices stay on when I change from “Watch TV” to “Watch a movie,” but it does not let me tell it to leave my screen down, so the screen starts going up, then goes back down. I’m working on ways to deal with that.

 

I don’t know which universal remote you are using, but you may be able to use this device to control your screen by with arbitrary IR transmissions, rather than depending on CEC. Another approach would use power sensing of the projector. Power sensing could be a box in the power cord or, if you are lucky, there might be a power switched USB port on the projector.

buzz

Historically, HDMI has been a one way video + audio connection connecting sources to a TV or A/V system. Many current TV’s include Apps and there is a need to send audio back to the A/V system. This is the point of HDMI-ARC (Audio Return Channel). The return channel is a separate path and both the TV and A/V system must be able to deal with this. A simple software update cannot add Audio Return Channel support unless the hardware paths were already in place. eARC increases the return audio channel features and bandwidth, supporting more advanced audio features. Again, both ends of the connection need to support this.

Very few HDMI switches deal with the Audio Return Channel or eARC. Since projectors don’t usually include Apps, there is no need for projector Audio Return Channel support. Probably it would be prudent for projectors to include HDMI-ARC support because it would eliminate a lot of user confusion and hassles.

The optical output from HDMI switches, when passed through the SONOS optical adaptor, will appear to be an Audio Return Channel feed to the SONOS ARC or BEAM. SONOS ARC or BEAM will not accept regular HDMI audio feeds, only HDMI-ARC or HDMI-eARC are supported.

 

T
Badge +2

 

Very few HDMI switches deal with the Audio Return Channel or eARC. Since projectors don’t usually include Apps, there is no need for projector Audio Return Channel support. Probably it would be prudent for projectors to include HDMI-ARC support because it would eliminate a lot of user confusion and hassles.

At the time when I ordered this switch I had not heard of ARC. (At that point I had not bought new equipment for a few years, knowing I’d be moving in the future, and what I was getting was for two projection systems.) It does support ARC, but, of course, does not generate ARC.

It may or may not be good for projectors to include ARC, but when you look at the names behind nicer projectors, I think what they do will go farther toward defining a standard than what Sonos or other companies making sound or accessory products will do. Arcana does help with that, but, seriously, this is our small system, for just TV watching, not for movies or bigger deals when I have friends over (well, I was doing that - before the pandemic). The projector was something like $1,200 for this system. I can’t justify, even to myself, spending $900 on a sound system for that setup when that doesn’t even include the speakers.

The optical output from HDMI switches, when passed through the SONOS optical adaptor, will appear to be an Audio Return Channel feed to the SONOS ARC or BEAM. SONOS ARC or BEAM will not accept regular HDMI audio feeds, only HDMI-ARC or HDMI-eARC are supported.

From what I’m hearing, though, unless there is already an ARC signal in the system, the adaptor won’t generate ARC. I’m already quite frustratingly aware that the AMP won’t accept regular HDMI audio - which is the thing I’m most ticked off about. I get that, without ARC, there might be sync issues, but it seems to me the AMP should be able to pull audio out of HDMI. If Sonos is worried about sync issues, then the switch to turn non-ARC HDMI on could be put a few levels down in the menus, so it’s buried and when it’s selected, the app can give a warning that sync might be an issue. (Just like, every time the AMP resets itself to HDMI in, and I have to reset it to Line In, it gives me a warning.)
-----------

Going to your other post, @buzz, regarding the PlayBar, you saw the link to the HDMI switch I'm using. It has analog, HDMI, and TOSLink outputs. For the PlayBar, I’m not using any adaptors, just a cable from the switch to the PlayBar. Generally it’s okay, but there are sync issues sometimes. Not all the time, but at times the audio and video go out of sync. The advisor at Crutchfield (and people at Crutchfield really know their stuff!) has said he has had reports from several people of that issue with the PlayBar and an optical cable. I’ve considered moving the PlayBar, since I could use it in my study, using network audio, and replacing it with an ARC. But once I ran into this problem, and found that the AMP can’t even maintain the Line-In setting, and that there’s no interest in looking at the ARC-less issue with projectors, I’m seriously considering replacing the entire 5.1 system there with non-Sonos. (And, honestly, if I do that, it’s the gateway that might lead to me eventually dropping Sonos all together. Not out of retaliation, but because I’d rather use products from companies that are more responsive and not as narrowly focused with blinders as Sonos seems to be.)

 

You are right about the dongle. It does not make an ARC signal where there isn’t one in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.

I do not disagree with you on the Amp losing the Line-in. This seems to be an (as yet unexplained?) fault, especially when it occurs without even a power failure.

As for HDMI-ARC. Sonos made a few choices when designing their HDMI-enabled soundbars. Most important choice was to work with HDMI-ARC and nothing else. They have stayed with this choice since. They must have had good technical or commercial reasons for this choice in the first place and they have seen no reason for a change on this in the last couple of years, for which they also must have good reasons. You are confronted with one of the disadvantages of this choice: you have no ARC capable TV. You have the absolute right to try and find a solution for this. But you should not blame Sonos for sticking to their original design choice. If there would be any commercial benefit in this, Sonos would have done it. Since they haven’t I do not think you have the right to complain about it just because devices are a bit expensive. You can ask them kindly to change their design, but if they do not do that they must have good reasons for it: it is not a technically or commercially viable option. If it does not work for you then it really is “take it or leave it”. There is nothing no other choice.

We don’t know the reasons for the choice and we don’t know the reasons for sticking with it. I don’t know Sonos, as a company, well enough, to know WHY they make their decisions. But I don’t entirely trust that such decisions were made to benefit the customers or with the entire market in mind. It seems to me that if one is covering higher end equipment, that would include nice home theater setups. I have a 134” screen. Granted, you can get a 120” LCD screen - for about $130,000, but I think that makes the case that film buffs who want a theater experience are going to go for a projection system. (Unless they’re multi-millionaires!) I’ll grant that big screen home theater is not nearly as big a market as people who may get, say, an 84” LCD smart TV and want a good system, but by ignoring this segment of the market, Sonos is also pretty much sending a message they’re avoiding a higher end market. But when you look at Arcana, at $200, and figure that includes design costs and that, as a single product, it’s a higher cost than if it were integrated into something else (or offered at a discount to customers who need it to make an audio component work), I do seriously question Sonos for excluding non-ARC HDMI. If the non-ARC issue were a rare or outdated one, I’d say I was just unlucky. It’s not.

The reason could be, “We did this, if we change, it looks like we made a mistake,” or, “We have this and we have a large supply of parts, so we’ll stick to it.” 

As to asking them to change their design - I seriously doubt, as a company, they care that much. Which is why I’m seriously considering something else for the nice home theater setup - and, as I said earlier, if I do that, it may very well open the door to just move past Sonos and gradually replace it all. I like having one system for the entire house and barn. It makes it easier for my wife and our relatives that visit to use the sound system when they want to listen to something.

I’ll see if I can get someone on the phone tomorrow about the dongle and see if it does provide HDMI-ARC or just converts whatever it gets as input. (I’m betting it just converts.)

T
Badge +2

Wow.  I don’t know what your conversation was like with tech support, but you’ve been given the solution to your problem several times now but you seem to keep trying to convince yourself that it won’t work.

Do you mean the dongle? If I believed the dongle would work, I’d get it, but the idiot said no and the person I got through a video chat (you see them, they don’t see you - interesting!) said that it does NOT create an ARC signal. It will pass an ARC signal along, if one is available at the optical end, but it won’t create it.

 

 

You’re getting too hung up on words  Dongle...adapter...whatever.  The device that has been referenced several times, and it looks like you’ve now purchased is the answer.    As I stated before, I wouldn’t say that the dongle/adapter generates or creates an ARC signal either,  What it does is allow you to convert the audio coming through an optical cable to something that the Amp can read and process.

 

Why does the support document for setting up the Amp state the following?

When using Amp as front TV speakers, check your TV’s HDMI ports to confirm that your TV supports HDMI-ARC. If your TV doesn’t have an HDMI-ARC port, you will need an optical audio adapter to complete TV Setup.

That is the FIRST point I’ve seen that says it generates ARC. But what bothers me now is the page says so and tech support says no. Note that before I called tech support, it was discussed at length here and nobody had reason to believe this adaptor generated an ARC signal. This is the first source that says it does.

Note, also, that we had a Sonos employee checking in on this conversation earlier and he did not suggest this as a solution.

With those points in mind, I think I have reason to be skeptical.

 

 

You’re skeptical because your hung up specific words, probably not asking the right questions on your call to tech support or confusing them by asking about generating an ARC signal rather than asking if the dongle/adapter will resolve your issue.  The quote I provided doesn’t even mention the word ‘generate’, yet you’ve chosen to decide that it does.

 

As Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote (roughly) words are a sign of natural facts. That doesn’t mean they’re always the exact description, after all, a rose could go by any other name. No, I’m not hung up on the word or name for this device other than that I go for a convenient word that I can use to label a specific object. In programming, basically, I’m passing by reference. While I used to each English and could go on at length about when a word is important and when it isn’t, I could also, since I was a special ed teacher, go on at length about word finding issues and learning disabilities that create word finding issues for people. I’m one of them, so thank you very much for making me dump that out and making part of the conversation about my learning disability.

While I’m dealing with this issue, I’m dealing with a few quite stressful issues for the house and our lot. When I get stressed, I don’t sleep well and get tired. When that happens this issue comes up and gets worse. I can say, “Please have a seat in the ---- uh….” and someone will have to help me with the word “Chair.” Today I was talking to someone about replacing a leaking tub and couldn’t remember the word “Tub” until she said it.

So when I can easily and quickly “grab” a word for whatever reason, and use it as a label, and it’s not inaccurate, I use it.

Dongle.

It’s a dongle. It’s an adaptor. I don’t care what you call it, it’s still cable with a TOSLink connector at one end and an HDMI connector at the other end.

So freaking thank you for making this part of the conversation when it’s clear exactly what I’m referring to and any dwelling on that was not necessary.

Generating ARC - I’ve plugged an HDMI connector into the AMP and received an error when I tried to use it. It stated, clearly, that there was no ARC signal and that it needed configuration. Then, as I went on, it asked about the TV and the ARC signal. I don’t remember the terms, but it was quite clear, in the setup it was having me do, that I had to provide it with an ARC signal.

So MAYBE that dongle, Dongle, DONGLE works. Maybe it doesn’t. We’ll know know that when I get it.

Oh, by the way, did I point out that one Sonos employee here did NOT suggest it as a solution? Did I point out that one tech support guy said it was NOT the solution?

So I made the logical conclusion in the face of those points.

We’ll soon see if it’s right. But when TWO employees (granted, one is an idiot) say it’s NOT the solution, when the configuration tells me it needs ARC because I can't continue until there’s an ARC signal, and the one employee in the conversation does not even bring it up as a solution, does it make sense why it doesn’t seem like a solution?
 

 

I’m going to go on and order it, but I suspect that what they mean is if there’s an SPDIF port for output instead of HDMI. My reason is that we can see Arcana is $200, and this is $25, and I doubt Sonos (or anyone) would do this in that small a space (smaller than an Arcana box by far) and charge so little for that. Also, as I said, the smart tech support person said it can’t do that. (I don’t care what the idiot said!)

 

Arcana takes a normal HDMI input and converts it to HDMI-eARC (or ARC apparently), while also sending video to a display, and quite a few other features that aren’t relevant for this discussion.  The dongle/adapter  allows an optical audio signal to be processed by the Amp.  Two entirely different things.  You’ve seen the product description  and features for Arcana, and even if the features don’t make sense to you, it should give you some sort of understanding why Arcana costs so much more.

 

You’re saying that when a converter takes the electrical signal and converts it into light, then, at the other end, it’s converted back to electrical, that the data on the output end is not the same as on the input end? Or that the data, when carried through an optical connector is not the same as the data in the HDMI connector?

I find that extremely hard to follow, so I’d really appreciate a breakdown on it.

T
Badge +2

The SONOS ARC accepts only HDMI-ARC audio or HDMI-eARC audio. Therefore, it’s a reasonable assumption that the SONOS dongle creates HDMI-ARC audio from TOSLINK. I guess the SONOS support agent is being strictly correct in stating that the dongle does not create a full HDMI-ARC because HDMI-ARC is a two-way connection, but TOSLINK is only one-way audio.

 

Well, we’ll see. I do see that point, but I also question why, if that cable provides an ARC signal, why wasn’t it mentioned, early on, as a solution to my problem?

Clearly I don’t know the specs on ARC, but when we talk about two-way, it’s possible that the “two way” refers to the point that it’s data coming back from the destination for the HDMI data. (All HDMI data goes INTO the TV, but then the TV sends ARC back - so that might be the two way aspect of it.) Do you know if the sound system is supposed to communicate with the TV that’s sending the ARC signal out?

Again, HDMI-ARC audio uses a different set of pins in the cable from legacy HDMI. Unless the hardware path exists to access the other set of pins, there is no chance for a software upgrade to suddenly start flipping between HDMI audio and HDMI-ARC audio.

The SONOS dongle is a very simple device. ARCANA is rather complex because it deals with full video, EDID, and CEC.

 

One other concern I’ve had, which I don’t think anyone as mentioned is licensing. Apparently there are issues with licensing in order to get the specs needed to decode HDMI audio and ARC audio. I’m not clear if that’s true and licensing is required. I do know there is always a concern about piracy and that there there is a focus on making sure people can’t just easily decode data from an HDMI cable. I don’t know how that works with EDID devices or ARCANA. Maybe ARCANA is licensed if that’s part of the issue.

For example, it does see that some devices stay on when I change from “Watch TV” to “Watch a movie,” but it does not let me tell it to leave my screen down, so the screen starts going up, then goes back down. I’m working on ways to deal with that.

 

I don’t know which universal remote you are using, but you may be able to use this device to control your screen by with arbitrary IR transmissions, rather than depending on CEC. Another approach would use power sensing of the projector. Power sensing could be a box in the power cord or, if you are lucky, there might be a power switched USB port on the projector.

Right now I’m using a Logitech one - I think in the Harmony series, but I can’t remember the model number. It’s not one with a hub. I also know Logitech is scrapping that whole line. (Overall, I consider Logitech the “King of Mediocre.” I’m sure you don’t want me to get into that. I had low cost universal remotes for about $30 that I could use to do anything and do it better. Sadly the company behind them discontinued them.)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I’ve got plans. With my available time, it’ll take a few months to get it all set up, though! I'm setting up home automation one device at a time - hard to fit it in these days. I’m using Home Assistant, which can handle multiple protocols. (Z-Wave, wifi, Zigbee, Insteon...) I’m waiting for two IR devices from China (they’ve been on the boat since 9/17). When I get those, I’ll be using HA to handle the IR signals. One issue I have is the screen in the house: I need it to stop most of the way down, but not all the way. (Plus that screen has trouble with IR signals overall.) I’m going to be hooking up a Raspberry Pi to that screen and stick a piece of conductive tape on part of it so I can have more control over it.

T
Badge +2

Hi @TangoMe 

I’m sure you won’t like me being pedantic, but Best Answers are not Solutions. Very often, the Best Answer is to call technical support, which is not a Solution.

Regarding the Amp, I refer you back to my initial statement:

Finally, if you feel that there is some kind of fault with the Amp, I recommend you get in touch with our technical support team.

And regarding settings and “states”, I completely understand your points. With AutoPlay enabled, the input is determined, not remembered. With AutoPlay disabled, the Amp will start in a state of “no music selected” - no queue, no input selected. I can treat this as a feature request but as AutoPlay should take care of this for you, I wouldn’t expect to see changes any time soon. A ground-loop isolator should sort out AutoPlay functionality for you. 

Thank you for that extra on the settings and states. I get that AutoPlay fixes the issue, but when you’re talking about a feature request, AutoPlay as a fix for this is confusing or, at the least, counter-intuitive. It’s not at all clear to a user what’s going on or that using AutoPlay will keep it in LineIn on restart. Maybe having AutoPlay as the default, so the unit will always, after power loss, go back to exactly the way it was would be more in line with expected behavior?

I don’t know how it is now, but at my old house, I wasn’t using any UPS units, other than for my computers. Every time power went out and came back on, even for a short flicker, I would have to regroup my Sonos devices. In our new place, and now that I’m married, so there are two people in the house and guest house, and we have a guest house where family stays sometime, grouping doesn’t work as well and I don’t use it much. However, I found it seriously frustrating that grouping was not preserved during a power outage. Does AutoPlay fix that issue, too? Or has it been fixed?
 

It may only take 2-3 minutes to do things like change to LineIn and to setup groups again, but for a premium product like Sonos, that kind of thing should be automatic. It’s like buying an upscale car and, every time it starts, having to retune the radio to the last station you were playing and reposition the seat and steering column settings to the way they were when you were last driving the car. It leaves the customer feeling frustrated that something that most cars (or audio devices) should be able to easily do has to be repeatedly done by hand.

I ordered a ground loop from Amazon and tried it - it created a distracting buzz while we were watching TV. I’m sending it back. If there is something specific I should look for in a ground loop or a particular brand that is known to work well, I’m open to suggestions.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

Reading the comments by  @buzz I do think you should ask Sonos about the dongle. For your comments about Sonos and HDMI-ARC vs the projector community I think it is Sonos’ choice to leave that part of the market behind. For whatever reason. You think this is not a wise decision - Sonos does.

buzz

 

Thanks for the suggestion, but I’ve got plans. With my available time, it’ll take a few months to get it all set up, though! I'm setting up home automation one device at a time - hard to fit it in these days. I’m using Home Assistant, which can handle multiple protocols. (Z-Wave, wifi, Zigbee, Insteon...) I’m waiting for two IR devices from China (they’ve been on the boat since 9/17). When I get those, I’ll be using HA to handle the IR signals. One issue I have is the screen in the house: I need it to stop most of the way down, but not all the way. (Plus that screen has trouble with IR signals overall.) I’m going to be hooking up a Raspberry Pi to that screen and stick a piece of conductive tape on part of it so I can have more control over it.

Raspberry Pi can easily deal with CEC. If you have an iOS device available, check out TouchControl for the user interface. Your own creativity will be the major limit. 

T
Badge +2

Reading the comments by  @buzz I do think you should ask Sonos about the dongle. For your comments about Sonos and HDMI-ARC vs the projector community I think it is Sonos’ choice to leave that part of the market behind. For whatever reason. You think this is not a wise decision - Sonos does.

And unless people like me don’t stand up and say, “This sucks!” then they’ll never get an idea of whether or not there are people in that market who want Sonos.

Most people just say, “Damn,” and don’t bother to voice their concerns. I learned that with my business: The people who don’t complain are the ones that often go elsewhere and leave you wondering what’s going on. The vocal ones often show trends that aren’t always obvious in other ways.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

Since your concerns are about the major technical choice Sonos has made when designing its soundbars they have probably been noted and set aside a long time ago. Yes, Sonos is missing customers as a result of this choice. And when they realise this part of the customer base is big enough they might change it. Since the choice is basic Sonos, I do not think the chances are great they will change this. But I have been surprised before. You do sound a bit like "Sonos should do this because they are expensive and I want them to” though. That's not the way it works.

buzz

Cheap analog ground isolators are not always effective enough. If you try a few cheap, ineffective isolators, Jensen will eliminate your ground loop, but may be uncomfortably expensive.

 

buzz

Many A/V receivers can support both HDMI and HDMI-ARC, but the installation is not “plug and play” as is typical with SONOS.

There are still some “kinks” that the industry needs to work out. HDMI needs to serve multiple masters. The movie industry has intellectual property protection as a top priority. In some respects, because of all the hoops that equipment designers need to jump through, I’m not sure if the movie people care if you can play the movie or not, only that you cannot copy it. If the copy protection limits quality in some way, this is OK. As a source is selected there is a copy protection negotiation that must succeed before play is allowed. Failure will usually result in a silent, black screen, however, sometimes there are displayed messages.

Another aspect is the HDMI-ARC that we are grumbling about here. HDMI-ARC requires two different hardware paths and a means for the consumer to work through a maze of setup options. Then there is the maze of video and audio formats. TV’s and audio systems need to negotiate and figure out shared capability. A user could have some legacy equipment that does not support 2K, 4K, or the emerging 8K and 10K formats. A TV or projector that supports only one audio or video format is a non starter. “EDID” (Extended Display Identification Data) is the technology that allows units to negotiate formats. An EDID fail can result in no audio or video as a source is selected.

And, there is “CEC” (Consumer Electronics Control) that attempts to ease control of a large collection of components. The goal of CEC is to allow the user to drop a DVD into a player and the player will power up other units and select inputs without any user action. A favorite CEC fail is the middle of the night cable box update ending with turning the cable box turning ON. The cable box then sends out the CEC notice -- resulting in TV play. Another interesting fail results after turning OFF the TV, and turning OFF the DVD player in an attempt to go to bed. Unfortunately, since the cable box is still ON, CEC can assume that the user really wanted to watch cable, and the TV and A/V system will startup again to watch cable -- requiring another shut down by the user. Since this restart may require many seconds and the user may have already left the room, the user will discover that the TV is playing in the morning.

In my experience SONOS is one of the most capable products attempting to negotiate this maze, but it is not foolproof. On Thursday mornings at about 3:30am cable boxes in my area might be updated. I must be careful to ensure that ARC is muted at this time -- or else. Fortunately, I have an Arcana and I can block this middle of the night turn ON by the cable box.

For community members demanding to know what drives SONOS and why “my” very important issue has not been dealt with, SONOS attempts to minimize support costs and keeps track of every support request. There are also focus groups and this and other communities are monitored. While a few posters can raise quite a fuss in a community, the feature request or “issue” might not be very wide spread.

Recently there was a quirk with the new ROAM causing it to sometimes forget that it was stereo paired with another ROAM. This created a lot of “flames” and, I suspect, support calls. This was fixed with last week’s update.

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