Greed - legacy devices

  • 31 January 2020
  • 46 replies
  • 935 views
D

Unfortunately all that I can say about the recent announcement is that Sonos is treating it’s customers as cash cows. The amount of money that each customer spends on a good product runs, sometimes, into 1000’s and then suddenly turnaround and say that your items are no longer viable is incredulous.

The reputational damage that Sonos has created could run into millions as loyal customers decide that the expense is not worth it.

Sonos rethink, you’re an intelligent firm, but poor when it comes to customer good will.

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46 replies

K

@Jeffrey_G and @DT186 

A suggestion, if I may. Why not move out of venting mode and to a place to pick up and/or contribute to solutions that are not fixated on Sonos?

See:

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-pragmatic-ways-past-it-6836056

oops, sorry, I have posted this link here already.

J

Hey @DT186  he's having a laugh at our expense. Looking at his post history there's an obvious disdain for anyone mad about the Sonos actions, he's like a carnival heckler trying to real in a sucker. Ill be ignoring this poster from now on so as not to feed into the sideshow.

D

I applaud your ability to take comments out of context and turn them to your perceived benefit.

There was no implication that Sonos should charge the same as a Rolex or Ferrari, it was a discussion on your comment about 'absurd', in particular the pricing of highend products. The questions posed you chose to ignore.

'Absurd fantasy' goes to show the lack of understanding on how a business is run. Do you honesty feel that a business sticks it's finger in the air and comes up with a pricing strategy - very naive. Its discussed at boardmeetings together with development costs - surely you understand that? 

To answer your question I would not buy a device if it was outside my price range. I would not have bought either of the new mobile phone or Dyson when they were first launched as they were horrifically priced, however history has shown the price of technology reduces over time and therefore the functionality increases. Would I buy a Sonos, before the announcement was made? Yes because it was, in my opinion a highend product with an excellent reputation, within my price range.

And now a simple question. In my lack of technical expertise (derisive comments awaited) when is 32MB not 32MB? Is it when it's gold plated and diamond encrusted or is it still 32MB? Are there 32MB devices marketed as 32MB but cunningly they are more? Surely 32MB is still 32MB even if it's sugar coated? Explain.

 

jgatie

Still not the same product.  Can't polish that turd of misinformation either.  So own your mistake.

Nope no misinformation. Hey I hear they changed the screw supplier from zp90 to connect so sorry for spreading that misinformation cause they are like totally different devices due to the screws even though they all only have 32mb ram for 10 years.

 

Nope, different processors, different wireless, different names, different model numbers, different products.  But keep polishing your turd of misinformation.  

J

Still not the same product.  Can't polish that turd of misinformation either.  So own your mistake.

Nope no misinformation. Hey I hear they changed the screw supplier from zp90 to connect so sorry for spreading that misinformation cause they are like totally different devices due to the screws even though they all only have 32mb ram for 10 years.

jgatie

Still not the same product.  Can't polish that turd of misinformation either.  So own your mistake.

J

Still not the same product.  Just correcting your misinformation.

Still the same 32mb of Ram for 10 years straight even if the radio was "like going from g to N". Can't polish that turd away.

Did the Bridge, who's purpose is/was providing wireless to players get this "like g to N" upgrade on its radio in 2008? It was sold from 2005 until after they brought the boost out in 2014. 

jgatie

Still not the same product.  Just correcting your misinformation.

J

My 

 

 

 

 

However this all detracts from the idea that Sonos made conscious decisions with regards the longevity of their product and this is what I think people find upsetting. 

 

Zp80- 2005- 32 mb

Zp90- 2008 -32mb

P5 - 2009 32 mb 

Connect - 2011 -32 MB 

P3- 2011 -64 MB

2011-2015 - connect/amp p5 continue to be milked for every last penny. Other products like playbar/p3/P1 and sub were released with more memory.

Greasy, greedy to sell same product under three different names for 10 years with 32 mb ram. 

 

ZP80 and ZP90 had far different wireless.  Like going from G to N.  Not even close to the same product.

Yup and they updated to the new style logo and slightly different color ........... but still kept the 32 mb RAM. Greedy yup.

jgatie

My 

 

 

 

 

However this all detracts from the idea that Sonos made conscious decisions with regards the longevity of their product and this is what I think people find upsetting. 

 

Zp80- 2005- 32 mb

Zp90- 2008 -32mb

P5 - 2009 32 mb 

Connect - 2011 -32 MB 

P3- 2011 -64 MB

2011-2015 - connect/amp p5 continue to be milked for every last penny. Other products like playbar/p3/P1 and sub were released with more memory.

Greasy, greedy to sell same product under three different names for 10 years with 32 mb ram. 

 

ZP80 and ZP90 had far different wireless.  Like going from G to N.  Not even close to the same product.

J

My 

 

 

 

 

However this all detracts from the idea that Sonos made conscious decisions with regards the longevity of their product and this is what I think people find upsetting. 

 

Zp80- 2005- 32 mb

Zp90- 2008 -32mb

P5 - 2009 32 mb 

Connect - 2011 -32 MB 

P3- 2011 -64 MB

2011-2015 - connect/amp p5 continue to be milked for every last penny. Other products like playbar/p3/P1 and sub were released with more memory.

Greasy, greedy to sell same product under three different names for 10 years with 32 mb ram. 

 

jgatie

Good grief, you actually doubled down?  :rolling_eyes:

 

1. So you want Sonos priced like a Rolex or Ferrari?  Yeah, that will sell. 

2. You have no idea what decisions were made or how they arrived at them.  For all you know, 32 MB was seen as far more than was needed, and was future proof circa 2005.

And yes, your fantasy of how things should have gone is the very definition of absurd.  So tell me, as one who has shown the quickness you have to toss around words like "greed", would you have purchased a Sonos device priced at 5 to 10 times what you originally paid?  All for some bean counter's or nerdy engineer's idea of what makes it future proof?  Put that on top of the idea that you originally doubted 32 MB is a limiting factor right here in the future today?

Be honest.

D

My final thoughts on this debate are as follows.

I may not be technically minded as some of you and I also thank Danny for taking my statement apart like a gifted surgeon with a scalpel. However the sentiment still remains.

When Sonos developed the system there must have been a larger MB than 32MB, if there wasn't then I stand corrected. However if there was then the developers and the Board made the decision to elect for the lesser to keep cost down. 

Sonos is a technology company and would therefore have a long term development plan. If they didn't, we'll I'm sorry they should go bust, as I am sure you are all well aware technology moves quickly. Keep up or fall away. If they did have an idea going forward then Sonos will have made the conscious decision to produce a product in the knowledge that the product will become ,eventually, obsolete. So yes it was planned to keep costs down and 32MB.

The simple question is who benefits? The customer or the company? Yes, greed is a strong word and I feel that it's correct as it is in this instance predetermined. 

I never said I thought they were lying, I said it incredulous.  A lie is only a lie when a statement is proved so. I hope that I'm proved totally incorrect.

Thank you for your input but my view still remains.

 

 

And how many would they have sold by doubling the memory and storage at 2005 prices? 

And if they did do that, how many of those prone to accusing a corporation of greed would claim they were “gouging the customer” or “overbuilding in order to charge more”, only to change your tune to them being “greedy” for not doing it when faced with the issues we are today? 

So let’s recap: You are proposing that you would have accepted their reasons for overbuilding in expensive memory components back in 2005, even though you are barely accepting the explanation that 32 MB is not enough today, never mind when 32 MB was huge for embedded systems?  I find that as doubtful.   

ETA:  And in truth, to overbuild the units in 2005 to be viable for all features in 2020, they would have to put at least 512 MB RAM and storage to equal the Port, and twice that to equal the Beam, Amp, etc.  That’s 16 and 32 times what they had, at 2005 prices.  The costs passed on to the customer would be astronomical.  And I still ask, would you be accepting this astronomical pricing merely because Sonos told you that 16 to 32 times what it requires now for RAM and storage was needed for “future features”?  Of course not, it would seem absurd!

Let's explore the history of innovation and technology.

Rolls Royce decided to make the best car in the world, Mr Brough's son decided to make the best motorbike (Brough Superior) . The first mobile phone, the first Dyson vacuum cleaner, the Grand Seiko watch. What links all these? The ambition to build the best, the drive to use the best available technology at the time without compromise. To create a luxury brand and demand.

I would like to think that Sonos is a premium brand or is it just a throw away technology ?There are a lot of cheaper copies (flattery) but none have the quality of product (my opinion). It has been demonstrated that there was the technology to make their product future proof, however it's obvious they wanted a certain price target - a conscious decision. 

By using the more expensive technology Sonos could have created a high end brand, where cost initially could have been prohibitive to some. The company would then have the decision to either keep the rrp high and remain relatively exclusive or reduce the rrp as cost come down and thereby creating further demand. That's a boardroom decision.

The choice was to use the lesser technology for the price target with the knowledge that the life of the product is limited, a boardroom decision. 

'Absurd' is subjective. Is the price of a Rolex absurd or a Ferrari? Is paying a premium for luxury item absurd in the knowledge that you are getting the best? It's only 'absurd' if the desire is there but the pricing is unobtainable. Is it absurd to buy a £1000 phone only to throw it away after a few years because software updates are no longer available? Is it absurd to upgrade to a phone with 3 camera lenses instead of 2? It's all subjective.

However this all detracts from the idea that Sonos made conscious decisions with regards the longevity of their product and this is what I think people find upsetting. 

N

I joined this forum today only to voice my displeasure with this decision.  I have 3 items that are now considered “Legacy” and several others that are not.  

I am very disappointed with this decision!!!!  I have recommended Sonos to many people and in most cases they have purchased.  There goes people valuing my recommendations.  My point is, Sonos decision has other impacts.  The part that’s really concerning is a 4 month warning, that’s just unacceptable in my opinion.

 

K

“Greed is good”. The fictional Gordon Gekko, in the equally fictional movie “Wall Street”, explaining how greed is the fuel that drives all that is good in the capitalist system. A bit of a stretch to go that far, but the starting premise isn't as bad as it seems at first.

The problem of course is that the greed has to be tempered with a long term vision to ensure that the greed can be fed in a sustainable way for years and decades and not just months and quarters.

And those on the thread that are looking for viable ways ahead once they are done with venting their justified annoyance, may I suggest a visit to:

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-pragmatic-ways-past-it-6836056

By virtue of the nature of the beast, it is now a long and therefore unwieldy thread, but the time needed go through it may, I suggest, justify it’s investment.

N

I’m joined this forum today only to voice my displeasure with this decision.  I have 3 items that are now considered “Legacy” and several others that are not.  

I am very disappointed with this decision!!!!  I have recommended Sonos to many people and in most cases they have purchased.  There goes people valuing my recommendations.  My point is, Sonos decision has other impacts.  The part that’s really concerning is a 4 month warning, that’s just unacceptable in my opinion.

chicks

I hope that I'm proved totally incorrect.

 

Oh, don’t worry. :yum:

jgatie

My final thoughts on this debate are as follows.

I may not be technically minded as some of you and I also thank Danny for taking my statement apart like a gifted surgeon with a scalpel. However the sentiment still remains.

When Sonos developed the system there must have been a larger MB than 32MB, if there wasn't then I stand corrected. However if there was then the developers and the Board made the decision to elect for the lesser to keep cost down. 

Sonos is a technology company and would therefore have a long term development plan. If they didn't, we'll I'm sorry they should go bust, as I am sure you are all well aware technology moves quickly. Keep up or fall away. If they did have an idea going forward then Sonos will have made the conscious decision to produce a product in the knowledge that the product will become ,eventually, obsolete. So yes it was planned to keep costs down and 32MB.

The simple question is who benefits? The customer or the company? Yes, greed is a strong word and I feel that it's correct as it is in this instance predetermined. 

I never said I thought they were lying, I said it incredulous.  A lie is only a lie when a statement is proved so. I hope that I'm proved totally incorrect.

Thank you for your input but my view still remains.

 

 

And how many would they have sold by doubling the memory and storage at 2005 prices? 

And if they did do that, how many of those prone to accusing a corporation of greed would claim they were “gouging the customer” or “overbuilding in order to charge more”, only to change your tune to them being “greedy” for not doing it when faced with the issues we are today? 

So let’s recap: You are proposing that you would have accepted their reasons for overbuilding in expensive memory components back in 2005, even though you are barely accepting the explanation that 32 MB is not enough today, never mind when 32 MB was huge for embedded systems?  I find that as doubtful.   

ETA:  And in truth, to overbuild the units in 2005 to be viable for all features in 2020, they would have to put at least 512 MB RAM and storage to equal the Port, and twice that to equal the Beam, Amp, etc.  That’s 16 and 32 times what they had, at 2005 prices.  The costs passed on to the customer would be astronomical.  And I still ask, would you be accepting this astronomical pricing merely because Sonos told you that 16 to 32 times what it requires now for RAM and storage was needed for “future features”?  Of course not, it would seem absurd!

D

My final thoughts on this debate are as follows.

I may not be technically minded as some of you and I also thank Danny for taking my statement apart like a gifted surgeon with a scalpel. However the sentiment still remains.

When Sonos developed the system there must have been a larger MB than 32MB, if there wasn't then I stand corrected. However if there was then the developers and the Board made the decision to elect for the lesser to keep cost down. 

Sonos is a technology company and would therefore have a long term development plan. If they didn't, we'll I'm sorry they should go bust, as I am sure you are all well aware technology moves quickly. Keep up or fall away. If they did have an idea going forward then Sonos will have made the conscious decision to produce a product in the knowledge that the product will become ,eventually, obsolete. So yes it was planned to keep costs down and 32MB.

The simple question is who benefits? The customer or the company? Yes, greed is a strong word and I feel that it's correct as it is in this instance predetermined. 

I never said I thought they were lying, I said it incredulous.  A lie is only a lie when a statement is proved so. I hope that I'm proved totally incorrect.

Thank you for your input but my view still remains.

 

melvimbe

Lots of things held sacred in the Sonos space have been blown up in the last week. 

I'm shocked that you aren't roasting Sonos for selling a device with only 32mb ram in 2015. 

They could have upgraded the Ram but didn't until 2015!!! A decade, they don't deserve praise for hoodwinking their customers.

This greasy greedy company milked their customers for over a decade selling 32mb devices and milking every last penny. Damn right I am cynical.

 

 

There was some discussion about how 32MB could be found in 2015 product here

Danny
D

This has started some passionate debate and I thank you for your views and also your optimistic opinions.

I like the way people try and change another person’s view. It has to be remember an opinion cannot be incorrect, it’s a view, and it is refreshing to hear the different opinions that this debate has brought forward. If you disagree that’s fine but a person’s opinion, not matter how misguided you feel it is, is still legitimate.

The overriding feeling that I get from this is that there is a view where there is a) misinformation b) that CEO is inevitably correct c) that people are happy to invest (buy - MELVIMBE) and throw away perfectly good hardware.

And finally yes I do get annoyed that my phone goes obsolete very quickly (Sony) doesn’t everyone? Perhaps your pay grade it higher than mine and that’s why I have had a Samsung for the past 5 years and it works perfectly fine. I don’t feel the need to update at every opportunity particularly when the cost for Sonos products are expensive.

 

 

 

J

The thing I am most amazed at is why people find it so hard to believe the claim that in a tightly integrated system like Sonos, where it has always been a requirement to have all speakers and controllers on the same software version, it is just proving impossible to develop things further in the presence of devices with 32MB of memory.  32MB! Sonos have kept the ZP80 going through the development of streaming services, voice control, mobile device controllers and more.

Then when Sonos say ‘devices with only 32MB just can’t keep up with any more system developments’, some people would rather believe that is a pretext, a lie, proof that Sonos are guilty of ‘planned obsolesence’.  32MB!!  Some ZP80s will probably still be doing good service when they hit their 20th birthday.  And Sonos are guilty of planned obsolescence?

Well we have been round this before.  I shall leave those of you who believe this is a money-grab to your suspicious, illogical and cynical view of the world.

Lots of things held sacred in the Sonos space have been blown up in the last week. 

I'm shocked that you aren't roasting Sonos for selling a device with only 32mb ram in 2015. 

They could have upgraded the Ram but didn't until 2015!!! A decade, they don't deserve praise for hoodwinking their customers.

This greasy greedy company milked their customers for over a decade selling 32mb devices and milking every last penny. Damn right I am cynical.

 

Lol

J

You can choose to be angry and paint with that brush.  Me, I tend to be an optimist.  Agree to disagree. 

Sounds good, sending a virtual high five your way.

jgatie

You can choose to be angry and paint with that brush.  Me, I tend to be an optimist.  Agree to disagree. 

J

The thing I am most amazed at is why people find it so hard to believe the claim that in a tightly integrated system like Sonos, where it has always been a requirement to have all speakers and controllers on the same software version, it is just proving impossible to develop things further in the presence of devices with 32MB of memory.  32MB! Sonos have kept the ZP80 going through the development of streaming services, voice control, mobile device controllers and more.

Then when Sonos say ‘devices with only 32MB just can’t keep up with any more system developments’, some people would rather believe that is a pretext, a lie, proof that Sonos are guilty of ‘planned obsolesence’.  32MB!!  Some ZP80s will probably still be doing good service when they hit their 20th birthday.  And Sonos are guilty of planned obsolescence?

Well we have been round this before.  I shall leave those of you who believe this is a money-grab to your suspicious, illogical and cynical view of the world.

Lots of things held sacred in the Sonos space have been blown up in the last week. 

I'm shocked that you aren't roasting Sonos for selling a device with only 32mb ram in 2015. 

They could have upgraded the Ram but didn't until 2015!!! A decade, they don't deserve praise for hoodwinking their customers.

This greasy greedy company milked their customers for over a decade selling 32mb devices and milking every last penny. Damn right I am cynical.

 

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