Sonos Version 6.4 Now in Public Beta



Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

290 replies

Userlevel 7
Badge +22
Its not just that I'm using the mobile controller and fat fingering. Its just instinctively clicking on a song and I'm not always using my Sonos when I'm thinking about what I'm doing (I have been just clicking on the song for years now in search to bring up menu - I don't just stop doing overnight). I myself can teach myself to try and stop clicking on a song. However, visitors to my house I can't train like that. They are going to click on the song and stop the music - will happen and will happen a lot with the clicking interrupting the currently playing queue. I can't be alone in this with anyone else who has multiple users interacting with their Sonos. If it was just us owners then we could probably just "deal with it". The new methods for the Sonos controller are there to make it easy for a single user to interact and quickly play what is on their mind. In a multiuser environment with multiple people adding songs to a queue it is a very different situation.

I am not against the changes as some think. I know Sonos is trying to make it as easy as possible for people to quickly play the music they want and the new way is the way most people have learned to play on their mobile device with other apps (and will help sell more speakers with that familiarity - however flawed I think the method is). Its just a matter of some tweaks to not at the same time reduce usability for queue users. Refinement isn't there YET.
Looking on at the passion with which these views are being expressed about these changes - for and against.

Yes, there is a strong passion all round and I certainly don't mean anything 'personal' towards anyone by anything I have said here. I do appreciate some people may have a different viewpoint and their views are just as important as anyone else's, but it's better to 'air' these things and bring them into the open and not suppress or censor them, so the company can perhaps then find some degree of true common-ground between us all.

One of the stumbling blocks, that might be giving rise to some of the different views here, are the many types of different controller devices now in use for controlling the Sonos hardware. Whilst the controller software interface is meant to work the same (or similar) for the majority of devices it seems apparent to me that screen size and some differences between larger tablets and smaller mobiles may sometimes bring different user problems to the table and besides that, we all probably use the Sonos software in different ways.

My thoughts are that Chris was perhaps using a mobile and was finding navigation an issue and causing him to select songs by accident.. That's something I don't experience with my larger tablet.

Also (as another example) Chris was creating links to folders from his music library as links to his own albums/playlists which he 'stored' as playlists in his Sonos Favorites and that's when he encountered the recently reported folders issue, which Sonos has acknowledged and are investigating. I did not stumble on the folders issue, as I don't save such playlist links to my own music albums.

It's good though, I think, to ALWAYS raise these issues... We certainly should not 'fall out' with each other over such matters, even if we do strongly try to support our own points of view.

I'm sure if Sonos got rid of the 'Play Now' tap feature from the songs results list and moved it over to the context menu, that I would not be banging my drum about that - I would just accept it as a necessary compromise and move on, but that shouldn't stop me fighting my corner right now to keep the 'Play Now' tap feature in that list, as it seems to work just fine in the case of my own controller.

Compromise usually comes along eventually, even if that means I have to change the way I use the Sonos software... I am happy to change my ways to suit the views of the majority, in the same way that I am more than happy to say 'sorry' to people, whenever I get things wrong.
Userlevel 5
Badge +7
Looking on at the passion with which these views are being expressed about these changes - for and against - I would be a bit worried if I were Sonos. This has shown that we all have very different listening behaviours. I have to admit a lot of the changes I foiund to be unintuitive and disruptive but clearly others love the direction.

In terms of Play Now inserting tracks after 1st song after queue is exhausted is clearly a bug and can be easily fixed.
Barry M,

All I can say is you and I are poles-apart with the way the v6.4 beta software now works. I doubt we shall ever reach agreement. I prefer the single one-click feature and I'm not suffering any accidental interruptions with my current controller.

The exhausted queue feature that you mention lastly in your post, is easily solveable according to Ratty and I think his earlier suggestion to resolve it was a very good idea. It's also easily understood as to why it currently happens and that is after a queue finishes playing the focus shifts back to the beginning ready to play the queue again, so anything added is fired into the position immediately after the first track... I don't see that as a major issue personally speaking, but it is something that I agree should be fixed, before final release, if that is practicable, within current deadlines.

As I don't get the accidental interruptions to my playing queue, I am happy with the much faster interface and don't want to see the return of always using the slower context menu options... I prefer one single press to play my music, not two or more... Not only is it faster, but a lot more music is now added to my queue than before and I find I am listening to more music than beforehand.

I don't agree about the Play Now feature inserting the track as just being an oversight or a bug... Before, in v6.3 the 'Play' context menu option (to the best of my memory) added the chosen track to the bottom of the existing queue, the queue stopped playing the track it was playing (if any) and began playing the chosen last track added. The entire (remaining) queue was effectively 'skipped' by the 'Play action, just to play the one newly added track. Then afterwards the music simply stopped.

The new 'Play Now' feature adds the track to below the current 'focus' of the queue and so in most cases it inserts the track into the existing queue and plays it and then the rest of the queue that follows it is then played... So effectively the music just keeps on playing to the end of the queue.

I don't see that as an oversight, nor a bug... It's innovative, compared to how things worked in v6.3.

So we will just have to agree to disagree and perhaps move on.

I did suggest the context menu 'fix' earlier to perhaps help solve Chris' 'accidental-interruption' problem in his songs-results list, but let me just say again, I would personally not want to see that feature myself, as I don't get the issue on my tablet controller, but it is right that the Sonos developers should look to try to please the majority of their users.

I guess whatever happens with the ongoing development of this beta, its nigh on impossible to please all the people, all the time.
That's my view... I think it works just fine ...and i know Chris and others here, are saying things work differently elsewhere in the app... All I can say is that isn't true.

I don't agree.

L... to the best of my memory the old 'play' context menu feature in v6.3 interrupted what was playing anyway ... So I don't see the reason why people are now complaining about the interruption effect that the 'Play Now' feature has on the queue. .... [snip] .... If anyone can direct me to where there are other inconsistencies involving a standalone song and it's default (play now) action is different then I will stand corrected (again)

The production version protects you against accidental interruption of what is currently playing. Both the tap, and long tap, actions brought up the the Play Now, Play Next, etc menu, where you can make your explicit choice.

This issue has been introduced by the beta changes.

If I have searched for an album or artist or genre etc, it is still OK, as a tap just opens the item, and a long tap displays the popup menu. When the album or whatever has been opened, the currently playing track is protected by the new "edited queue" confirmation dialog box.

But if I have searched for a song, the tap action is now a hair triggered mood destroyer, as it starts playing the track, interrupting whatever track was in progress. This is unwelcome in my opinion. It is also to some degree inconsistent and unexpected, as no other list item tap has this destructive effect. I realise that the "Playing this will replace the queue" confirmation dialog box is a by-product of the fact that all other taps are selecting track selections, but the result is that in other circumstances a tap against an listed item cannot break the mood. In those other situations you have to do this explicitly by selecting a menu item.

Maybe I am OTT, but I think that the answer to the question "how often is it OK for the UI to allow accidental interruption of the currently playing track (or the forward queue)?" is the same as the answer to "how often is OK to drop the baby on its head?".

Neither case is of course acceptable, so I think the current long-press, or the ellipsis, context menu option, available in the current beta, would solve things for Chris. That could mean removing the 'Play Now’ default tap-action entirely from a standalone song and switching the 'Play Now' option over to the current context menu. This is only a suggestion by the way.

I can't speak for Chris, but it sounds like an improvement to me.

Some users said they expected it [Play Next] to add the selected track to the end of the queue, instead of inserting it at the 'focus' within the queue, but I think the latter was a much better innovative idea, as the queue could then continue on afterwards.

The "'focus' of the queue" explains away nothing. It is like saying "the driver hit you because he was drunk". It explains away, and forgives nothing.

And I don't think that it was in innovative idea. I think that it is a bug, or an oversight at best.

It is ok that the UI visually rolls the queue back to the beginning, as the user may elect to replay it. But Play Next's insertion point should still be at the end of the currently playing, or last played, track IMO.

The UI shouldn't deliver surprises. ie. The queue is exhausted. ... I select an album and Play Next ... I hear it start playing ... I see it queued ... all good apparently .... but if I scroll down to the bottom of the album, I see that it is to be followed by all but the 1st track of the old queue. ... Surprise!
isn't that what v6.3 used to do?
Yes, but on a simple tap not a long touch.


In which case I would have expected that Chris was once accidentally clicking on his search results tracks in the songs tab, but was 'acceptably', but regularly, seeing his context menu in the earlier v6.3 of the software.

Neither case is of course acceptable, so I think the current long-press, or the ellipsis, context menu option, available in the current beta, would solve things for Chris. That could mean removing the 'Play Now’ default tap-action entirely from a standalone song and switching the 'Play Now' option over to the current context menu. This is only a suggestion by the way.

Let me just say again, this is not something I would want to see myself, as I don't get the 'accidental tap' issue on my tablet controller, but the software should work as best as possible for all users and on ALL the different controllers that are available to the end-user.

I'm sure Sonos Support Staff read these threads and despite my earlier 'playlist mistake', which I have apologised for, they will hopefully see and get a clear understanding of this issue raised by Chris and look to possible solutions themselves, before the final software release candidate.

I have suggested one possible fix (which I don't particularly want to see myself), but if there are any other suggestions from people here, then I think they should submit the usual Sonos beta feedback and/or post any other suggestions here, so the developers can be made aware and decide what maybe best for the release candidate.

I really do hope though, that we do not lose the 'Play Now' feature entirely and that the developers decide to remove it until these things can be considered and then implemented at some later date. I really like the way it works right now.

I think adding the 'Play Now' to the context menu is a bit of a step back towards v6.3 and I quite like the current simple one-click 'play' options that we see in this beta.

I guess we also don't know what the company plans are for the 30th August and whether or not these single-click features may have any bearing on future Sonos plans of integration with some other third-party apps etc.
isn't that what v6.3 used to do?
Yes, but on a simple tap not a long touch.
In fact I have just thought of one other possible option, which might solve Chris' accidental 'tap' issue and that is to maybe ask the Sonos programmers to remove the ability to tap on a standalone song in the results list and to shift the 'Play Now' default action to the top of the (right click) context menu... It means tapping a song would not perform any action, but a long press (or right click) on a song or selecting the (...) ellipsis, would reveal the context menu, which would contain all the 'play' options... but isn't that what v6.3 used to do?

Just a suggestion, but I still like how it works now, but I accept it may perhaps not be entirely user-friendly on Chris' particular mobile controller.
Looking back over the posts regarding the beta, one of the biggest things asked for by the users was the simple 'Play' or 'Play Now' feature. I am not disappointed with it.

Some users said they expected it to add the selected track to the end of the queue, instead of inserting it at the 'focus' within the queue, but I think the latter was a much better innovative idea, as the queue could then continue on afterwards... but to the best of my memory the old 'play' context menu feature in v6.3 interrupted what was playing anyway ... So I don't see the reason why people are now complaining about the interruption effect that the 'Play Now' feature has on the queue.

Next, if I look back at Chris's early comments he says this:

- Edit Queue
- Search for Song
- when song results show accidentally tap on the song
- it will Play Now (expected action would be that you would get Queue has been edited dialog)

This is a misunderstanding by Chris ... There is no such dialog box in the software that simply warns a queue has been edited. (..or maybe I should say, "is about to be re-edited") by the user.

The reason the warning dialog box is presented to the end-user is to actually warn them that they are about to REPLACE an entire edited queue, not that the queue has simply been edited ... The 'play now' feature (as Ratty rightly says is non-destructive) in other words, the track selected is NOT replacing the queue... It is simply inserting the track into the queue (whether it has been edited, or not). The queue is not being replaced or lost. Hence no dialogue box will ever appear arising from the 'play now' feature.

I think that is where some of the confusion lies and I don't think anyone wants to see any more dialog boxes about adding tracks to a queue etc.

Next then, if the default action of inserting a single track from the songs results list is not acceptable, we have to ask 'what is a better option?'

Personally, I think there isn't a better option in this case, but I did suggest that you could let a tap on a single song (outside an album or playlist), replace the entire queue, but I think that would be a mistake to make that the default 'tap' option.

That's my view... I think it works just fine ...and i know Chris and others here, are saying things work differently elsewhere in the app... All I can say is that isn't true. The only place where things are inconsistent, that I can see is in the earlier reported folders issue, which Chris reported to Sonos last week.

If anyone can direct me to where there are other inconsistencies involving a standalone song and it's default (play now) action is different then I will stand corrected (again), but I think that people are either encountering the (reported) folder issue, or they are selecting non-standalone tracks that are part of an album or playlist ... which, of course, will replace the queue with/or without the Replace-Warning dialogue box, depending on whether or not the existing queue has previously been edited.

My fear is some of the misunderstandings here, will result in the 'play now' feature being dropped and put back to a later release date, whereas I think it works as I would expect in many ways, albeit I would like to see Rattys recent suggested solution involving the "exhausted-queue" matter implemented, before the beta becomes the next/final release candidate.
Userlevel 7
Badge +22
Thx Barry
I agree with Chris' disappointment.

From my POV it is a cardinal sin for the UI to allow me to accidentally interrupt whatever is currently playing.

This used to be possible only when the queue was showing on screen. A previous update improved upon that situation by having the queue folded away by default, out of harms way.

The new change has now introduced this exposure into the browsing experience (!), and has made it hair triggered.

And for what? .. To save some people one further click to start playing their selection. I really dislike the change. It is like someone has recalled my car, and I find that they moved the brake into the middle of the steering wheel, so that they can sell more cars to amputees.

The other thing which irks me is that Sonos was initially so keen to deliver simplicity, that they went too far (IMO), and didn't implement configuration options.

Now they seem to have lost this focus, and the UI actions are becoming overloaded. Play Next works differently when the queue is exhausted, to how it works when the queue is active. ... Three times now I have accidentally caused queued and completed items to be replayed; another thing which does my head in.

Play Now works differently in a search list, than it does in all other situations. I understand Ratty's and Ken's point, but it is confusing IMO. An accidental tap when scrolling in a search list is a mood killer, whereas you are protected elsewhere.

Rather than overloading menu actions it would be better if it sought further instruction in situations where there were choices. Maybe a pop-up a question saying "This Track Only or ALL From Here"? for Play Next in a non-search list situation. That would be better than Sonos making modal assumptions about what I want to play, and whether I am OK to interrupt something.
I'm really sorry if my earlier post confused things ... I completely accept my earlier mistake, but I was trying to simplify things... I just did it badly.

However, that aside, I really cannot see a problem with the default tap action on a single track (held outside of a playlist or album). I'm struggling to see what else could be done by the programmers, other than changing the default tap action to actually replacing the existing queue with the single track... I certainly don't want to see that.

I think the way it works now is just fine. I'm not finding an issue with it, albeit I'm sure I'm using a different controller device to Chris.
it will Play Now (expected action would be that you would get Queue has been edited dialog)
No, because Play Now is non-destructive on the queue.


Chris,

Please don't give up... this is obviously important to you and perhaps everyone else here.

To go back and keep things simple then.. If you do a Sonos search and tap a single song, there are only a few things it can possibly do:

It can insert song into your queue (at point of focus) and begin playing it (which is what it does now)... Queue is not destroyed.

It can replace the whole unedited queue and begin playing (that's already an option on the context menu)

It can play the song next, or add it to end of the queue (but these options are also on context menu).

So what would you expect the tap on such a song (held outside of a playlist or album) to do?

If we can start with what you expect to see instead, I think there would be a better understanding of the point you are trying to highlight to everyone.
The thread reads terribly now.
The mods can clean up the assertion/correction exchanges if they see fit.
Userlevel 7
Badge +14
I was confused by Ken's repeated insistence that it works in a particular manner when it simply doesn't - and all along it was an 'over-simplification' for poor Chris's benefit.
The thread reads terribly now.
Userlevel 7
Badge +22
I'm not confused
I am entirely accepting what you say, but was trying to keep it simple for Chris to follow... I didn't want to confuse him any more than he appears to be...
I'm not confused, and I don't think Chris is either. The confusion arose from your insistence that a track in song search results was treated as a single-track playlist, with a default action of replacing the queue.

Personally I see the results list working as it was intended to work.

Good.
If you do a Sonos search and select a track from your songs tab it will treat it as a playlist (with just one song) and it will replace the UNEDITED queue with that song and begin playing it.
It doesn't. The default action executes a Play Now, inserting after the current track and playing the new track. Go and try it.


I'm not trying to argue the point Ratty, I am entirely accepting what you say, but was trying to keep it simple for Chris to follow... I didn't want to confuse him any more than he appears to be...yes it does insert the single track to an existing queue, you are right to point that out. I was over-simplifying things and it was a mistake on my part.

All I can say is the 'tap' actions from the results display is what I would expect to see ... It's certainly not the same or similar issue that was happening with folders, albeit Chris thinks it is the same or a very similar issue.

Personally I see the results list working as it was intended to work.
If you do a Sonos search and select a track from your songs tab it will treat it as a playlist (with just one song) and it will replace the UNEDITED queue with that song and begin playing it.
No it doesn't. Tapping or double-clicking on an item in 'songs' search results delivers a 'Play Now' action, for just that track.


Ratty,

There was no such thing as the ’play now' feature in the initial version of the beta ... But tracks within the Sonos results did 'play now' (to use that term) as they were treated like everything else and that was as a playlist, albeit with just one track to load to the queue and begin playing.

The ’play now' feature came later (as requested firstly by MikeV and also by the stream of users here who signed up for the public beta) ... Initially though everything was treated in the same way as a playlist play button. Which can be called 'play now' if you prefer.

The only exception to this was the issue reported by Chris, who created links to folders from his library in Sonos favourites and discovered they were not working as they should be ... That turned out to be true and Sonos has accepted that and stated it should be corrected in a later version.
Which is the same as selecting a playlist (play button) with a single track in it.
It isn't. The default action from songs search results executes a Play Now, inserting after the current track and playing the new track. Go and try it.
Userlevel 7
Badge +22
I don't need it described to me ... I know what it does.
If you do a Sonos search and select a track from your songs tab it will treat it as a playlist (with just one song) and it will replace the UNEDITED queue with that song and begin playing it.
No it doesn't. Tapping or double-clicking on an item in 'songs' search results delivers a 'Play Now' action, for just that track.


Which is the same as selecting a playlist (play button) with a single track in it... It was easier to describe it that way to Chris.
since the icon is 'live' (at least on Android), a second tap should pause a playing track
Hmm. That no longer occurs in album or playlist views either, nor in the queue itself (a change from 6.3). Tapping in the queue doesn't pause/resume; it restarts that track from the beginning. This could confuse some folks.
If you do a Sonos search and select a track from your songs tab it will treat it as a playlist (with just one song) and it will replace the UNEDITED queue with that song and begin playing it.
No it doesn't. Tapping or double-clicking on an item in 'songs' search results delivers a 'Play Now' action, for just that track.
So it should default to play now and if clicked stop your music.
Now there'd I agree. The action if tapped again is to insert again and play. Intuitively, since the icon is 'live' (at least on Android), a second tap should pause a playing track, not 'Play Now' all over again.