End of Software Support - Clarifications

I did as well, but when an original email says that streaming music services will stop working, and the subsequent email doesn’t say that they won’t, that doesn’t mean that the music services will continue. It just means they omitted to reiterate that they would stop.

I think most people understand that the connection between Sonos and various services is a cooperation between two companies and not entirely under Sonos’ control. I understand that its not possible for Sonos to guarantee that these type of circumstances won’t arise, but a simple commitment to continue to update their code to allow streaming music services to run on both legacy and modern devices would suffice.

Again, I think there statements have made the commitment you’re asking for. It comes down to whether considers music services to be part of the ‘experience’. I can’t really debate your point because I don’t except your premise. Without further clarification from Sonos, can’t do anything but agree to disagree.

I think Sonos could clarify what an ‘experience’ is, but I think they are going to avoid making any specific guarantees since they can’t control the hardware limitations or what changes streaming services are going to make.

Perhaps this is true, but I’m not aware of any need for larger amounts of RAM or processing power to stream music from these services at this point.

I agree with that. That is part of the basis why I find it rather unlikely that a music service will stop working on Sonos anytime soon. Not impossible, but unlikely.

I’m dubious about this.

Dubious about what? Sonos stated that they won’t fix a problem that can’t be fixed given the hardware. Are you saying that it’s impossible that a change won’t fit in the hardware (I’d say highly unlikely), or that Sonos is just lying and using this as an excuse not to fix a broken streaming service. And if the later is the case, why would they need to say that if music service fixes aren’t promised at all, and why would you want clarification if you aren’t going to believe what Sonos says anyway. I’m not saying the later is your position, just wondering how you’re dubious.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d gladly sacrifice any of the new features introduced since I purchased my equipment that may take up additional code and RAM for the the continuation of streaming music services.

Some people purchased their equipment before the iPhone existed, much less streaming services.

Userlevel 5

+4

User694694
Enthusiast II
91 replies
4 years ago
26 February 2020

There is no ‘what if’ in the support article. It says (many times) ‘over time functionality of features and services will be impacted’

I don’t know if anyone is arguing whether it will happen or not. I think the question is whether “over time” means a few months, a few years, or a decade when technology that we haven’t even imagined for these services have evolved beyond what they are now.

On the other hand Spotify could choose to 'pull’ their streaming music service from any streaming audio system, including a Sonos 'modern' system, or any 'other’ device-manufacturers system for that matter, that’s if they so choose. It’s ludicrous to begin speculating about such things in this way.

My own thoughts are Spotify will want to keep as many consumers of their service as they can ...and we should perhaps keep in mind that Sonos sell many hundreds, if not thousands of products, every single day of the year to people worldwide … that’s now a very large customer base that Spotify will not want to upset, or lose.

I, for one, would likely move my custom to a Spotify competitor in that given situation anyway, like Amazon Music HD or Deezer HiFi (just as examples), as that would be far easier than having to get rid of my home audio system ..so I think Spotify are not going to suddenly choose to “shoot themselves in the foot” by pulling out of the Sonos system, legacy, or modern.

In any event, I really see no point in any of us trying to debate, or speculate, over such things, as the answer to this is simply “not foreseeable” by any of us.

Those here who are speculating that a company ‘partner', like Spotify, may choose to drop their service in the near-term and upset their own customers, is really doing nothing other than 'scaremongering' the community here and I sincerely hope that the genuine members, with an ounce of sense, who read these things, are not being fooled into believing such utter unfounded guesswork … particularly as many of us actually see these type of claims as being in the “highly unlikely to happen” category for the foreseeable future.

Userlevel 5

+4

User694694
Enthusiast II
91 replies
4 years ago
26 February 2020

I’m dubious about this.

Dubious about what? Sonos stated that they won’t fix a problem that can’t be fixed given the hardware. Are you saying that it’s impossible that a change won’t fit in the hardware (I’d say highly unlikely), or that Sonos is just lying and using this as an excuse not to fix a broken streaming service. And if the later is the case, why would they need to say that if music service fixes aren’t promised at all, and why would you want clarification if you aren’t going to believe what Sonos says anyway. I’m not saying the later is your position, just wondering how you’re dubious.

I’m dubious that soon to be legacy hardware couldn’t continue to stream music services for the foreseeable future if Sonos wanted to continue patching the code. I’m not saying Sonos won’t. I’m saying I’d be dubious if in 1 year a service broke when no major upgrades to the service were announced (like discontinuation of non-Hi-Res audio or conversion to only 24 bit audio or something of that nature). I’m also suspicious because of what I posted earlier about the Community Moderator (Ryan) saying that a change that happened just 1 month ago with Spotify could have broken the streaming service working with Sonos devices and if it had, there would not be updates to fix it for Legacy devices. Had it happened in June, it sounds like we would have been SOL. This implies that updates to streaming music services wouldn’t be updated despite the hardware obviously being able to support it.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d gladly sacrifice any of the new features introduced since I purchased my equipment that may take up additional code and RAM for the the continuation of streaming music services.

Some people purchased their equipment before the iPhone existed, much less streaming services.

I don’t get the point of this? Usually people only have one phone, not dozens like some Sonos consumers. Companies who have dozens of Apple devices have the option of being taken care of by their business division that includes leasing equipment that will be replaced with new equipment on a regular basis. Sonos doesn’t have such a program that I am aware of.

Userlevel 5

+4

User694694
Enthusiast II
91 replies
4 years ago
26 February 2020

On the other hand Spotify could choose to 'pull’ their streaming music service from any streaming audio system, including a Sonos 'modern' system, or any 'other’ device-manufacturers system for that matter, that’s if they so choose. It’s ludicrous to begin speculating about such things in this way.

My own thoughts are Spotify will want to keep as many consumers of their service as they can ...and we should perhaps keep in mind that Sonos sell many hundreds, if not thousands of products, every single day of the year to people worldwide … that’s now a very large customer base that Spotify will not want to upset, or lose.

I for one, would likely move my custom to a Spotify competitor in that given situation anyway, like Amazon Music HD or Deezer HiFi (just as examples), as that would be far easier than having to get rid of my home audio system ..so I think Spotify are not going to suddenly choose to “shoot themselves in the foot” by pulling out of the Sonos system, legacy, or modern.

In any event, I really see no point in any of us trying to debate, or speculate, over such things, as the answer to this is simply “not foreseeable” by any of us.

Those here who are speculating that a company ‘partner', like Spotify, may choose drop their service in the near-term and upset their own customers, is really doing nothing other than 'scaremongering' the community here and I sincerely hope that the genuine members, with an ounce of sense, who read these things, are not being fooled into believing such utter unfounded guesswork … particularly as many of us actually see these type of claims as being in the “highly unlikely to happen” category for the foreseeable future.

You seem to be arguing your point with @melvimbe as he is the one who brought that up, but not in a way to scare the community. His point, I believe, was simply to explain that Sonos doesn’t have control over what services like Spotify do and therefore can’t make any absolute guarantees as far as keeping streaming music services going. I don’t think that anyone is trying to say that Spotify is going to intentionally make their service stop working with Sonos. My concern is that Sonos won’t put enough effort in on their part to keep them going for Legacy devices long before there are real insurmountable hurdles.

I’m dubious that soon to be legacy hardware couldn’t continue to stream music services for the foreseeable future if Sonos wanted to continue patching the code. I’m not saying Sonos won’t.

I see the ‘experience’ reference by Ryan to include patching code within the limits of the hardware. And I agree that it’s unlikely the hardware will be a limit any time soon.

I’m saying I’d be dubious if in 1 year a service broke when no major upgrades to the service were announced (like discontinuation of non-Hi-Res audio or conversion to only 24 bit audio or something of that nature).

That, as far as I can tell, would fall under part of the experience that Sonos is saying they will try to maintain.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d gladly sacrifice any of the new features introduced since I purchased my equipment that may take up additional code and RAM for the the continuation of streaming music services.

Some people purchased their equipment before the iPhone existed, much less streaming services.

I don’t get the point of this? Usually people only have one phone, not dozens like some Sonos consumers. Companies who have dozens of Apple devices have the option of being taken care of by their business division that includes leasing equipment that will be replaced with new equipment on a regular basis. Sonos doesn’t have such a program that I am aware of.

My point wasn’t a comparison to the iPhone or Apple. You mentioned that you were willing to sacrafice features introduced after your purchase. Streaming service were actually not an original feature of many of the equipment models. Neither was the ability to control Sonos from a smart phone. I understand where you want to draw the line at features that were available when you bought it, but that is going to be different for everyone. Even then, they could easily be more interested in more recent features than older features.

In summary, I accept that you don’t think Sonos statements are clear enough and that leads you have doubts about what scenarios, likely or unlikely, will be supported in the near future. Did I say that right? Regardless, I don’t agree.

P

Userlevel 3

+4

paulrw
Collaborator II
93 replies
4 years ago
26 February 2020

I’m dubious about this.

Dubious about what? Sonos stated that they won’t fix a problem that can’t be fixed given the hardware. Are you saying that it’s impossible that a change won’t fit in the hardware (I’d say highly unlikely), or that Sonos is just lying and using this as an excuse not to fix a broken streaming service. And if the later is the case, why would they need to say that if music service fixes aren’t promised at all, and why would you want clarification if you aren’t going to believe what Sonos says anyway. I’m not saying the later is your position, just wondering how you’re dubious.

I’m dubious that soon to be legacy hardware couldn’t continue to stream music services for the foreseeable future if Sonos wanted to continue patching the code. I’m not saying Sonos won’t. I’m saying I’d be dubious if in 1 year a service broke when no major upgrades to the service were announced (like discontinuation of non-Hi-Res audio or conversion to only 24 bit audio or something of that nature). I’m also suspicious because of what I posted earlier about the Community Moderator (Ryan) saying that a change that happened just 1 month ago with Spotify could have broken the streaming service working with Sonos devices and if it had, there would not be updates to fix it for Legacy devices. Had it happened in June, it sounds like we would have been SOL. This implies that updates to streaming music services wouldn’t be updated despite the hardware obviously being able to support it.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d gladly sacrifice any of the new features introduced since I purchased my equipment that may take up additional code and RAM for the the continuation of streaming music services.

Some people purchased their equipment before the iPhone existed, much less streaming services.

I don’t get the point of this? Usually people only have one phone, not dozens like some Sonos consumers. Companies who have dozens of Apple devices have the option of being taken care of by their business division that includes leasing equipment that will be replaced with new equipment on a regular basis. Sonos doesn’t have such a program that I am aware of.

Sonos has been trialling just that FLEX, a hardware rental monthly subscription option, i think it was holland or somewhere. But i read they are unlikely to take it forward at the moment…..

Found it:-

https://www.pocket-lint.com/speakers/news/sonos/149673-what-is-sonos-flex-what-do-the-subscriptions-offer-and-how-much-do-they-cost

Userlevel 5

+4

User694694
Enthusiast II
91 replies
4 years ago
26 February 2020

I’m dubious that soon to be legacy hardware couldn’t continue to stream music services for the foreseeable future if Sonos wanted to continue patching the code. I’m not saying Sonos won’t.

I see the ‘experience’ reference by Ryan to include patching code within the limits of the hardware. And I agree that it’s unlikely the hardware will be a limit any time soon.

I’m saying I’d be dubious if in 1 year a service broke when no major upgrades to the service were announced (like discontinuation of non-Hi-Res audio or conversion to only 24 bit audio or something of that nature).

That, as far as I can tell, would fall under part of the experience that Sonos is saying they will try to maintain.

I hope you’re right. It would be nice if they let us know what “experience” entails. They were very clear initially about what would be going away, so maybe there would be less consternation if they were clear about this as well.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d gladly sacrifice any of the new features introduced since I purchased my equipment that may take up additional code and RAM for the the continuation of streaming music services.

Some people purchased their equipment before the iPhone existed, much less streaming services.

I don’t get the point of this? Usually people only have one phone, not dozens like some Sonos consumers. Companies who have dozens of Apple devices have the option of being taken care of by their business division that includes leasing equipment that will be replaced with new equipment on a regular basis. Sonos doesn’t have such a program that I am aware of.

My point wasn’t a comparison to the iPhone or Apple. You mentioned that you were willing to sacrafice features introduced after your purchase. Streaming service were actually not an original feature of many of the equipment models. Neither was the ability to control Sonos from a smart phone. I understand where you want to draw the line at features that were available when you bought it, but that is going to be different for everyone. Even then, they could easily be more interested in more recent features than older features.

I understand that Sonos has added features. Yes, I was clear that I would be quite happy if my devices continued to be able to be used as they were when I purchased them. I wouldn’t have considered purchasing Sonos before the adoption of streaming music services. Having said that, if I had purchased my equipment prior to that point in time, I would be of a different mindset. I’m sure I would have become similarly dependent on the services, but I wouldn’t feel that Sonos was choosing not to maintain a feature that was paramount to my purchase decision. So, I still don’t really see your point in the original context.

In summary, I accept that you don’t think Sonos statements are clear enough and that leads you have doubts about what scenarios, likely or unlikely, will be supported in the near future. Did I say that right? Regardless, I don’t agree.

I’m glad you are on the same page as Sonos management. This doesn’t come as a complete shock to me. I maintain that Sonos has handled this announcement poorly and intentionally or unintentionally left its legacy customer base if not in the dark, a dimly lit environment.

A

Userlevel 4

+2

Amadeus1756
Enthusiast I
15 replies
4 years ago
28 February 2020

There was some question earlier about whether some of the hard work could be offloaded from the speakers. It looks (as a quick glance) that’s exactly what Roon are doing. And it supports Sonos speakers. This has potential for moving Sonos speakers into an (albeit expensive) commodity item.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sonos

A

Userlevel 6

+10

attacama40
Headliner I
331 replies
4 years ago
28 February 2020

There was some question earlier about whether some of the hard work could be offloaded from the speakers. It looks (as a quick glance) that’s exactly what Roon are doing. And it supports Sonos speakers. This has potential for moving Sonos speakers into an (albeit expensive) commodity item.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sonos

Exactly as you say. And exactly why I’ve been asking for the Sonos folks to communicate their implementation not just reassuring PR messaging, open to interpretation in a myriad of ways.

In the vacuum of poor messages coming (or rather not coming for some weeks now) folks will explore other options … even if they had absolutely no intention to do so. It’s in the nature of human beings. And yes I’m talking about me.

Summary to date: Happy large scale Sonos user, poorly considered messages come from Sonos, receivers of message get angry, some reassurance comes, then nothing … radio silence (like Jodie Foster in the SETI lab in Contact). Some users get really cross, some debate technical ‘maybes’, some look elsewhere out of curiosity. They find that there is (to their surprise) life after Sonos.

I never wished to be anything other than a ‘white box’ guy and happy buyer/user. But now? Well I own and use Roon …. and Tidal. And I have to tell you, it's very far from bad. And indeed it opens a world of other options … many very interesting…. not least of all, a Sonos shaped one.

I’m far from expert in Roon, just enjoying a new set of options to play with. In that same sense I was never an expert in Sonos. I never got to the ‘evangelist’ status some did with Sonos but I a huge fan for sure.

I still hope Sonos will get something hacked together and posted out to the world. Then it will kill off this thread if it’s a compelling message. Hey it may even create the confidence for some (me again) to buy a few new boxes. Would be nice.

In the meantime ….. the tennis match continues …. evangelists Vs the frustrated. And the other 80% of us playing umpire at the net just waiting for solid direction … nay, solution. :grinning:

U

User484363
Lyricist III
5 replies
4 years ago
28 February 2020

@attacama40 you hit the nail on the head with your last point. If Sonos would come out and say “We will let you keep your legacy and modern devices in a single controller, groupable as before, with music playing on multiple devices. The legacy devices will NOT get code upgrades, thus if any future music services are added they may not work and will not be supported even if they do. Existing music services will work as long as the provider of that service does not substantially change their protocol, but will not be supported if they do on legacy devices due to no further software updates”

It seems to me like the biggest complaint here is that they are going to completely brick our existing deployments, which looks like after the 2/22 update isn't completely the case, but they didn't exactly reassure us of the above because they were vague.

Clear, concise messaging (Outside of a simple shrug and statement to buy new) goes a really long way, especially for a luxury goods product that has entry points in the multiple hundreds of dollars.

A

Userlevel 6

+10

attacama40
Headliner I
331 replies
4 years ago
28 February 2020

@attacama40 you hit the nail on the head with your last point. If Sonos would come out and say “We will let you keep your legacy and modern devices in a single controller, groupable as before, with music playing on multiple devices. The legacy devices will NOT get code upgrades, thus if any future music services are added they may not work and will not be supported even if they do. Existing music services will work as long as the provider of that service does not substantially change their protocol, but will not be supported if they do on legacy devices due to no further software updates”

It seems to me like the biggest complaint here is that they are going to completely brick our existing deployments, which looks like after the 2/22 update isn't completely the case, but they didn't exactly reassure us of the above because they were vague.

Clear, concise messaging (Outside of a simple shrug and statement to buy new) goes a really long way, especially for a luxury goods product that has entry points in the multiple hundreds of dollars.

Exactly that. Say as you do and do as you say. Then we can all carry on being white box guys.

Strangely I suspect (but don’t know) that Sonos will come out with a reasonable solution for the reasonable 80%. And I get that they have traditionally been conservative with expectation setting .… I was one of those who waited years for the ‘Audible solution’ … and it was a good solution even if two birthday’s passed!

I doubt boxes will get bricked. I doubt Spotify will stop working like a seized brake caliper. I suspect that those of us who just want things that work will most likely be happy for another few years after May’s work.

Given that pedigree and likelihood, why the hell wait? Why not just say it and then do it? Buy back the loyalty of folks who have (until now) believed that the emperor had a great coat. And didn’t care to look elsewhere.

There was some question earlier about whether some of the hard work could be offloaded from the speakers. It looks (as a quick glance) that’s exactly what Roon are doing. And it supports Sonos speakers. This has potential for moving Sonos speakers into an (albeit expensive) commodity item.

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sonos

I agree that the 'roon’ subscription, or 'one-off' lifetime payment is too expensive, plus I don’t like the fact the player/software needs to always be running on the network. For those Sonos customers that use iOS etc; it’s probably just easier to leave a single AirPlay compatible Sonos device attached to a 'legacy' system, to group with another AirPlay device in the 'modern' system and play to both in sync… then group each of those with any other Sonos devices (legacy and/or modern). At least that would be a free (or cheaper) method of achieving the same thing with divided Sonos products. So I don’t personally see ‘roon’ as being a great alternative option for many Sonos users, post the May Sonos announcement.

I agree that the 'roon’ subscription, or 'one-off' lifetime, payment is too expensive, plus I don’t like the fact the player/software needs to always be running on the network. For those Sonos customers that use iOS etc; it’s probably just easier to leave a single AirPlay compatible Sonos device attached to a 'legacy' system, to group with another AirPlay device in the 'modern' system and play to both in sync… then group each of those with any other Sonos devices (legacy and/or modern). At least that would be a free (or cheaper) method of achieving the same thing with divided Sonos products. So I don’t personally see ‘roon’ as being a great alternative option for many Sonos users, post the May Sonos announcement.

If that was possible, then there wouldn’t be a necessity to separate legacy and modern components anyway. It’s been said, that we aren’t going to be able to group legacy and modern devices together, when being in separated systems; and grouping non-Airplay-enabled items within the Sonos app is nothing else. Or am I missing something?

@attacama40 you hit the nail on the head with your last point. If Sonos would come out and say “We will let you keep your legacy and modern devices in a single controller, groupable as before, with music playing on multiple devices. The legacy devices will NOT get code upgrades, thus if any future music services are added they may not work and will not be supported even if they do. Existing music services will work as long as the provider of that service does not substantially change their protocol, but will not be supported if they do on legacy devices due to no further software updates”

Your hypothetical quote is actually close to want Sonos has actually said, but seems to get lost in all the misinformation.

“We will let you keep your legacy and modern devices in a single controller, groupable as before, with music playing on multiple devices. This legacy system will NOT get code upgrades, thus if any future music services are added they may not work and will not be supported even if they do. Existing music services will work as long as the provider of that service does not substantially change their protocol, but will be support these changes within the limits of the legacy hardware”

It seems to me like the biggest complaint here is that they are going to completely brick our existing deployments, which looks like after the 2/22 update isn't completely the case, but they didn't exactly reassure us of the above because they were vague.

Existing deployments will not be bricked at all. Certain features will eventually stop working as third party services, etc advanced beyond what the legacy hardware can handle. Yes, there are parts of the message that is vague, but much of the confusion about what is happen is incorrect information that is being spread around. Part of that is because people are exaggerating points intentionally, which is somewhat understandable given frustration, in order to make the highly unlikely outcomes seem more likely.

Exactly that. Say as you do and do as you say. Then we can all carry on being white box guys.

Strangely I suspect (but don’t know) that Sonos will come out with a reasonable solution for the reasonable 80%. And I get that they have traditionally been conservative with expectation setting .… I was one of those who waited years for the ‘Audible solution’ … and it was a good solution even if two birthday’s passed!

The above makes it sound as if Sonos hasn’t provide any information about what’s going to happen in May at all. They have explained the difference between modern and legacy devices, modern and legacy systems (not great naming conventions here), who the systems will separate, which systems will get updates and what systems will get security and bug fixes. What they had not stated is the specific mechanics of this, I suspect because they have not 100% settled on the mechanics yet.

I doubt boxes will get bricked. I doubt Spotify will stop working like a seized brake caliper. I suspect that those of us who just want things that work will most likely be happy for another few years after May’s work.

The above is all things that have been said, by Sonos. The said legacy systems will continue to work after May...not bricked. They have said that they can’t guaratnee Spotify won’t change things after May, but it’s unlikely.

Given that pedigree and likelihood, why the hell wait? Why not just say it and then do it?

It sounds as if what you want to hear as already been said. Yes, there absolutely are details and mechanics that need to be spelled out, that Sonos has stated they will provide in May, but I’m not seeing you ask for anything that hasn’t been said already.

Also, nothing wrong with looking around at other options. I would just recommend that it be done objectively, knowing that other companies can run into the same sort of issues Sonos has.

A

Userlevel 6

+10

attacama40
Headliner I
331 replies
4 years ago
28 February 2020