Problems finding Sonos system when using powerlink adaptor to extend home network
My kitchen is a wifi blackspot and so I have used a TP-LINK AV200 power-line adaptor to extend the range of my wifi to that room. So I in effect have two wifi access points (for present purposes, lets call them HomeNet and HomeNet-TPL). My kitchen is the room we use the most and the Sonos Play 5 we have there connects to HomeNet-TPL. At least, I assume it does since they are next to each other and HomeNet doesn’t normally reach the kitchen. The Sonos Bridge connects by Ethernet cable to the Homenet Router. The problem is that my iPhone App doesn’t always find my Sonos Network when it connects to HomeNet-TPL (as it normally does when I am in the kitchen) and so I cannot control Sonos. I normally fix this by walking towards the HomeNet Router and then when my iPhone connects to that part of my network it then finds Sonos. However, this is an intermitted problem. Sometimes, my iPhone app does succeed in finding Sonos when it connects to HomeNet-TPL. Any ideas to avoid this annoying problem? It is embarrassing when I have friends around and show off my Sonos system and then my controller app can’t connect! They aren’t impressed.
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Interesting thought from Buzz to get an access point connected to the SonosNet which I will immediately try and sort out. Does an "Access Point" have the same network name as the main wireless point? Will devices get confursed "roaming" from one to the other. I really don't know. I assume not but will give it a go.
One point though on your earlier comment that electrical wires were not designed for audio etc. All that seems to be going over it though as far as Sonos is concerned are instructions to the SonosNet since the audio doesn't use it. So rather simple and presumably non-intensive audio. So still surprised that Sonos do not somehow fix the lack of network "purity" with some software fix.
But thanks anyway.
Start with the same SSID ("network name") for all of the access points and try not to use the same RF channel for overlapping areas. This is the conventional wisdom for "best practice". Unfortunately, I find that "roaming" can be hit or miss, particularly for iDevices. Some devices roam better if one uses different SSID's for each access point. Although it is counter intuitive in most cases, a given collection of devices may roam better if all of the access points use the same channel. In any case, restrict your choices to channel 1, 6, or 11. Avoid using "Wide" or "40MHz" channels. Experiment and use the scheme that works best for you.
iDevices are very stubborn and refuse to give up a distant access point, even when a much better deal is available nearby. You can force the iDevice to shop around by swiping up from the bottom of a screen, turning OFF the WiFi for a second, then turning the WiFi ON again.
There is a different approach for high end (usually called "enterprise") networking. In addition to the enterprise grade access points, there is a "controller" managing all of the access points. In this scheme the controller manages roaming. As a client moves from one coverage area to another, the controller passes the client from one access point to the next. This is seamless for the user. Unfortunately, the cost for this level of performance is out of the comfort zone for most home users.
If you wire a SONOS unit into an EoP (Ethernet over Powerline) device, SONOS will use this path for all data -- music and control. If the EoP device is struggling with its own connectivity, the issue is physical and not something that SONOS can fix in firmware. (It is really a variant of a "defective network cable")
I had exactly the same problem. Not the powerline seems to be the problem but the wifi established by the powerline device. I now disabled the powerline wifi and used an airport express instead. The airport express is connected to the powerline device with ethernet cable. Since that (a few days now) I have no problems to use my sonos controller with my iPhone. Maybe it' going to help you, too.
Sonos controllers use discovery broadcasts to locate the players. Some Powerline/AP units appear to be a bit reluctant to forward such traffic between their own WiFi and the Powerline connection.
I solved it by plugging the master of my powerline extender into my router. Then I plugged in the slave out in my living room and connected it to my connect via ethernet. Now everything works perfectly. Has anyone else tried this and been successful. My tplink powerline extender slave unit has two ethernet ports.I have an android phone that I'm controlling the system with, but it also worked on my pc. So happy to have this resolved.
I have recently invested in Fiber so before i run off buying lots of equipment to create a home network, I see now that there are some apparent issues related to Sonos.
Like most of you i have music in kitchen , which has proven to be a blind or at least weak spot for WIFI along with my sons room on second floor directly above.
Havent had any real issues streaming music even though WIFI signal for sure is weaker there.
Its not the latest Sonos equipment, ZP120 and CR200 controller, but it all runs great.
With WIFI blind spots in house i got excited to hear about AC Powerline that can be connected with Ethernet cable where needed.
However Sonos dont support this and i am by far any expert in creating home network.
Like most people i am happy if all in household can use their computers, every now and then even stream films from Netflix, and most of all enjoy Sonos music.
The most attractive solution for me is to go with AC Powerline.
I thought that this would be a quick fix to install.
Have i understood this correctly i can not simply connect Sonos with router using its WIFI and Powerline adapters for all other equipment in household ?
Your SONOS components are not using WiFi and will continue to work as they have been. Androids can use the SONOS wireless if configured to do so, iPhone/iPad must use WiFi. EoP (Ethernet over Powerline) can work well, but it can also be a mess. SonosNet (the SONOS wireless), Ethernet, and EoP are competing technologies, each eager to embarrass the others. In my experience SonosNet is the most robust and EoP is the least robust, but in a given bad situation any of the three can be the magic bullet. WiFi will generally be the fastest.
In the traditional home WiFi situation a wireless router is hidden away at a convenient location that has the cable feed, fiber, or telephone line. "Convenience" and "hidden" trump any technical considerations. Unfortunately, a wireless router trapped in a basement corner (for example) is a bad choice. Generally, higher locations work better than lower locations, but wall density and range are considerations too. The best solution uses multiple WiFi "access points" wired back to a central router. Of course, the router might also contain an access point too. If you can't wire the additional access points to the router, PoE might help. Multiple wired access points are routinely used in businesses, but they have been too expensive and difficult to manage for home users.
We are beginning to see home access points using technology similar to SonosNet that allows the home user to establish a "mesh" home WiFi network. (SONOS has been doing this since inception in 2005). The new Ubiquiti AmpliFi is one such system. One starts with a central "box", adding access points until the wireless mesh covers the building. You can expect all of the major wireless vendors to jump on this train soon. Yes, the latest all powerful central wireless routers are considerably more effective than their recent predecessors, but a few walls or a marble floor will bring these super power stars to their knees. (Actually they can't offer more raw power because of safety, interference, and legal considerations, but they do use more effective transmitters and receivers)
If you like, you can mix SonosNet and PoE in the same network. Actually, you could plug additional access points into any network jack on a SonosNet system and SonosNet will share its connectivity with the access points. Note, however, SonosNet has been optimized for robust, not speed and eventually you could overwhelm SonosNet with downloads and video streaming. Until very recently I had been using a ZP90 to connect this computer at a hard to wire spot. Over the years I had zero issues, but ultimately I wanted to take full advantage of my FIOS connection speed and pulled the inconvenient wire.
Thanks for your interesting reply. I simply got a new powerful D-link router and all family computers along with Sonos runs just fine using WIFI only. No need for AC Powerline !.
In previous " blind spots " we now get about 35 - 40 Mbit/s so a new router solved all my problems.
Great forum and wishing all the best for everyone.
I'm not going to ask for any advice because you have all been there already and done your best so thanks. I think that Sonos' lack of input on this issue speaks volumes though. Their refusal to do anything about it is actually quite arrogant. Perhaps they don't need customers who do not have the perfect conditions for their products and we are just an annoyance. That's less than I'd expect after having paid top dollar for what I thought was a premium product.
As some people have already pointed out, there are now many more similar products on the market so perhaps Sonos would be wise to at least give the impression that they are trying to find a solution and until they do, a warning notice about this issue on their packaging might stop people like me shelling out a heap of cash for an otherwise great product which doesn't always work if you happen to be in the wrong room.
Come on Sonos, wake up!
Sonos cannot fix this problem as it's caused by out-of-spec equipment.
As already noted, some Powerline WiFi Points apparently don't forward the broadcasts which Sonos controllers use to discover the players. And this is not some proprietary perversity: a fundamental basis of UPnP is that devices automatically discover each other on the network and exchange information about their respective capabilities.
If you replaced your Powerline adapters with, say, Devolo I believe you'd find they worked.
The underlying issue is that Sonos relies on a mechanism that only reliably works if you are trying to control the player from a device on the same layer 2 network as the Sonos player. For most WiFi routers in a default configuration (some can be changed) it means you need to be connected to the same WiFi router as the player and using the same SSID.
If the Sonos player is connected to a different WiFi network to your device you need to be very lucky for it to work. This is because many WiFi access points will not offer a layer-2 passthrough service and will try to "route" your traffic instead using a mechanism called NAT. If either WiFi access point is in routing mode, this breaks the Sonos discovery mechanism and you are out of luck. Worse, even if they are in layer-2 "switch / bridge" mode, they may not forward the Broadcast traffic and this will break the Sonos discovery mechanism.
Most powerline adaptors that have a fixed Ethernet network port will offer layer 2 connectivity and are as good as connecting a cable directly between two points. They work well and can be reliably used to place the Sonos player a long distance from your main home router, just like using a long cable. This should solve most peoples problems on this thread.
This setup will work in most cases:
[ISP / Internet] [Home Router] [Powerline Ethernet adaptor] [Powerline Ethernet adaptor] [Sonos player]
[ISP / Internet] [Home Router] [Device with Sonos App]
These connectivity problems are not related to how strong the WiFi or PowerLine signal is in your home, how old your wiring is etc. That can cause issues, but not this one.
There are a number of ways Sonos could modify their software to allow layer 3 communication between the controller app and the player and fix this problem for customers. One example would be a cloud based reverse VPN solution. Let's see if they rise to the challenge.
What lack of clarity?
Incorrect. A whole variety of layer 2 technologies can co-exist in the same network. What however is the case is that Sonos controllers and players must all share the same IP subnet and broadcast domain. This is a fundamental requirement for UPnP in general, not just Sonos.
Incorrect. A single IP subnet can extend over multiple media, including wired infrastructure, multiple WiFi APs with different SSIDs, Ethernet-over-Powerline, MOCA, SonosNet and -- if it were able to carry IP packets -- a damp piece of string. Again, the requirement is that there's simply a common broadcast domain.
Incorrect. However some routers can be reluctant to forward broadcasts between WiFi segments, breaking the above rule. That's a router issue.
Such a device is not a 'WiFi access point". It's a router, and it's commonly understood (or at least it should be) that a router breaks a network into multiple subnets.
In that case it's a router.
Indeed. And known culprits pop up from time to time on these boards. Some are even listed in https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/42.
Ethernet-over-Powerline does cause problems, for all the usually accepted reasons. Bad wiring, lengthy runs, a cable route which crosses a consumer unit, nearby appliances killing the RF carrier or injecting interference. All of these reduce bandwidth and contribute to latency, which often varies wildly. This can upset traffic flows and in some cases contribute to topology instability. It's for these reasons that Sonos won't officially support EoP.
Oh, and some EoP devices can indeed block certain types of traffic.
Whether or not Sonos opt for a cloud-based control option, UPnP is based on a single IP subnet. For most customers "this problem" doesn't exist.
Let's review the facts:
1) Sonos's software could, and should be, modified to operate over multiple local subnets thus solving this problem overnight.
2) Ethernet over Powerline between the main router and the Sonos device is a great solution for most people who have accidentally introduced multiple subnets. Yes performance is not always 100% perfect but be practical; good enough is good enough for this use case.
3) If another WiFi device is required for range extension, running it in Layer-2 bridge mode rather than routing mode will help to eliminate multiple subnets. Customers should be told this.
4) It's irrelevant how UPnP is is/not designed to work. It's not appropriate to solely rely on it if you actually care about customer experience.
5) It's extremely arrogant and short sighted to dismiss this issue as not currently affecting "most customers".
Pedantry or accuracy? Certain terminology was mis-used.
No, because the vast majority of home users don't run multiple subnets. Or at least not intentionally. And fundamentally rewriting the software to cater for those who have accidentally broken their network in two makes no sense whatsoever.
If it is, it's addressing completely the wrong issue. In fact it could end up compounding the problem rather than solving its root cause. Accidentally bridging two accidentally created subnets would cause even more mayhem.
Unless you're party to all the experience Sonos Support have accrued over the last 10+ years you can make this statement only from your anecdotal point of view.
'Help'? Turn it round: using a router will break a network into several subnets. An access point is an access point. A router is a router. A router in bridge mode functions as an access point. A router not in bridge mode also functions as an access point if DHCP is disabled and it's wired via a LAN port.
Believe me, we tell 'em all the time...
Of course it's relevant. Are we back to protecting the customer from accidentally creating multiple subnets again? See above.
Arrogant? Short sighted? Common business sense suggests that in the few instances where customers screw up their network by inadvertently introducing multiple subnets you simply help them un-screw it. You don't contemplate a full-scale re-architecting of the product's local network communications.
and that Sonos should somehow modify their software to take account of such mess-ups "overnight", it's not a question of playing nice or not. It's necessary to put the counter-argument so that lurkers don't go away with the wrong impression.
As for Sonos, they're not exactly going to offer guidance as to which EoP adapters to purchase. I have, because in the past Devolo have largely behaved themselves. Check that your controller device, when attached to the TP-Link, has an IP which is in the correct range. Try turning the iDevice off and on again, to forcibly flush its ARP cache.
Sonos has most certainly taken part in the discussion, maybe not in this thread, but in many like this before. They have stated in no uncertain terms that although some people can make them work, they do not support installs which use powerline type adapters. That is their definitive reply. Given that statement, I don't understand why you now expect them to help you with your install which uses powerline type adapters.
Sorry, I have not seen the other threads. When I searched for info on this issue, this is the thread that came up first and that's why I read and replied to it
Again, I have not seen that statement. If that is the case then it should have been printed on the box because potential customers cannot reasonably be expected to to trawl through manufacturer's forums looking for threads about problems they don't even know exist before they buy.
I'm leaving now but would like to thank those who gave helpful replies. However, I have to say that this forum is one of the unfriendliest I've encountered. What could have been a useful experience was spoilt by unnecessary nitpicking. I hope you will in future be able to behave in a more civil manner, unless of course, Sonos do not support civility either.
And by the way, that was my first post of any significance in this rebooting of the thread, and I hardly think it was uncivil.
It has been, and remains, a civil place. We pointed out that yours was not a configuration which Sonos officially support, and offered some suggestions.
Just connect the Sonos directly to your Wifi Repeater thru an ethernet cable!
It will work INSTANTLY!