Problems finding Sonos system when using powerlink adaptor to extend home network

Sonos has most certainly taken part in the discussion, maybe not in this thread, but in many like this before.

Sorry, I have not seen the other threads. When I searched for info on this issue, this is the thread that came up first and that's why I read and replied to it

They have stated in no uncertain terms that although some people can make them work, they do not support installs which use powerline type adapters. That is their definitive reply. Given that statement, I don't understand why you now expect them to help you with your install which uses powerline type adapters.

Again, I have not seen that statement. If that is the case then it should have been printed on the box because potential customers cannot reasonably be expected to to trawl through manufacturer's forums looking for threads about problems they don't even know exist before they buy.

I'm leaving now but would like to thank those who gave helpful replies. However, I have to say that this forum is one of the unfriendliest I've encountered. What could have been a useful experience was spoilt by unnecessary nitpicking. I hope you will in future be able to behave in a more civil manner, unless of course, Sonos do not support civility either.

Sorry, when someone suggests that

Ethernet over Powerline between the main router and the Sonos device is a great solution for most people who have accidentally introduced multiple subnets.

and that Sonos should somehow modify their software to take account of such mess-ups "overnight", it's not a question of playing nice or not. It's necessary to put the counter-argument so that lurkers don't go away with the wrong impression.

As for Sonos, they're not exactly going to offer guidance as to which EoP adapters to purchase. I have, because in the past Devolo have largely behaved themselves. Check that your controller device, when attached to the TP-Link, has an IP which is in the correct range. Try turning the iDevice off and on again, to forcibly flush its ARP cache.

An unhelpful and pedantic response that just muddies the waters.
Pedantry or accuracy? Certain terminology was mis-used.

1) Sonos's software could, and should be, modified to operate over multiple local subnets thus solving this problem overnight.

No, because the vast majority of home users don't run multiple subnets. Or at least not intentionally. And fundamentally rewriting the software to cater for those who have accidentally broken their network in two makes no sense whatsoever.

2) Ethernet over Powerline between the main router and the Sonos device is a great solution for most people who have accidentally introduced multiple subnets.

If it is, it's addressing completely the wrong issue. In fact it could end up compounding the problem rather than solving its root cause. Accidentally bridging two accidentally created subnets would cause even more mayhem.

Yes performance is not always 100% perfect but be practical; good enough is good enough for this use case.

Unless you're party to all the experience Sonos Support have accrued over the last 10+ years you can make this statement only from your anecdotal point of view.

3) If another WiFi device is required for range extension, running it in Layer-2 bridge mode rather than routing mode will help to eliminate multiple subnets.

'Help'? Turn it round: using a router will break a network into several subnets. An access point is an access point. A router is a router. A router in bridge mode functions as an access point. A router not in bridge mode also functions as an access point if DHCP is disabled and it's wired via a LAN port.

Customers should be told this.

Believe me, we tell 'em all the time...

4) It's irrelevant how UPnP is is/not designed to work. It's not appropriate to solely rely on it if you actually care about customer experience.

Of course it's relevant. Are we back to protecting the customer from accidentally creating multiple subnets again? See above.

5) It's extremely arrogant and short sighted to dismiss this issue as not currently affecting "most customers".

Arrogant? Short sighted? Common business sense suggests that in the few instances where customers screw up their network by inadvertently introducing multiple subnets you simply help them un-screw it. You don't contemplate a full-scale re-architecting of the product's local network communications.

Sorry, but I think there's a bit of misinformation here.

a lack of clarity on how their product works.
What lack of clarity?

The underlying issue is that Sonos relies on a mechanism that only reliably works if you are trying to control the player from a device on the same layer 2 network as the Sonos player.

Incorrect. A whole variety of layer 2 technologies can co-exist in the same network. What however is the case is that Sonos controllers and players must all share the same IP subnet and broadcast domain. This is a fundamental requirement for UPnP in general, not just Sonos.

For most WiFi routers in a default configuration (some can be changed) it means you need to be connected to the same WiFi router as the player and using the same SSID.

Incorrect. A single IP subnet can extend over multiple media, including wired infrastructure, multiple WiFi APs with different SSIDs, Ethernet-over-Powerline, MOCA, SonosNet and -- if it were able to carry IP packets -- a damp piece of string. Again, the requirement is that there's simply a common broadcast domain.

If the Sonos player is connected to a different WiFi network to your device you need to be very lucky for it to work.

Incorrect. However some routers can be reluctant to forward broadcasts between WiFi segments, breaking the above rule. That's a router issue.

This is because many WiFi access points will not offer a layer-2 passthrough service and will try to "route" your traffic instead using a mechanism called NAT.

Such a device is not a 'WiFi access point". It's a router, and it's commonly understood (or at least it should be) that a router breaks a network into multiple subnets.

If either WiFi access point is in routing mode, this breaks the Sonos discovery mechanism and you are out of luck.

In that case it's a router.

Worse, even if they are in layer-2 "switch / bridge" mode, they may not forward the Broadcast traffic and this will break the Sonos discovery mechanism.

Indeed. And known culprits pop up from time to time on these boards. Some are even listed in https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/42.

These connectivity problems are not related to how strong the WiFi or PowerLine signal is in your home, how old your wiring is etc. That can cause issues, but not this one.

Ethernet-over-Powerline does cause problems, for all the usually accepted reasons. Bad wiring, lengthy runs, a cable route which crosses a consumer unit, nearby appliances killing the RF carrier or injecting interference. All of these reduce bandwidth and contribute to latency, which often varies wildly. This can upset traffic flows and in some cases contribute to topology instability. It's for these reasons that Sonos won't officially support EoP.

Oh, and some EoP devices can indeed block certain types of traffic.

There are a number of ways Sonos could modify their software to allow layer 3 communication between the controller app and the player and fix this problem for customers. One example would be a cloud based reverse VPN solution. Let's see if they rise to the challenge.

Whether or not Sonos opt for a cloud-based control option, UPnP is based on a single IP subnet. For most customers "this problem" doesn't exist.

Never mind. Ratty has it covered.

Glad to hear a more powerful router did it for you Permo. However, our internet provider is Sky and they also provide the router. I don't think it's possible for Sky customers to use their own. Also, we live in an old house with thick walls so we have five TP-Link Wi-Fi extenders around the place. They work great for giving us good internet coverage all round but the only thing that doesn't work is the Sonos App. In fact, it only works when our iPhones and iPads are connected to the main router which in turn is hard wired to the Sonos Bridge. If we try to use the Sonos app while connected to any of the extenders the app cannot find any Sonos speakers.

I'm not going to ask for any advice because you have all been there already and done your best so thanks. I think that Sonos' lack of input on this issue speaks volumes though. Their refusal to do anything about it is actually quite arrogant. Perhaps they don't need customers who do not have the perfect conditions for their products and we are just an annoyance. That's less than I'd expect after having paid top dollar for what I thought was a premium product.

As some people have already pointed out, there are now many more similar products on the market so perhaps Sonos would be wise to at least give the impression that they are trying to find a solution and until they do, a warning notice about this issue on their packaging might stop people like me shelling out a heap of cash for an otherwise great product which doesn't always work if you happen to be in the wrong room.

Come on Sonos, wake up!

Permo,

Your SONOS components are not using WiFi and will continue to work as they have been. Androids can use the SONOS wireless if configured to do so, iPhone/iPad must use WiFi. EoP (Ethernet over Powerline) can work well, but it can also be a mess. SonosNet (the SONOS wireless), Ethernet, and EoP are competing technologies, each eager to embarrass the others. In my experience SonosNet is the most robust and EoP is the least robust, but in a given bad situation any of the three can be the magic bullet. WiFi will generally be the fastest.

In the traditional home WiFi situation a wireless router is hidden away at a convenient location that has the cable feed, fiber, or telephone line. "Convenience" and "hidden" trump any technical considerations. Unfortunately, a wireless router trapped in a basement corner (for example) is a bad choice. Generally, higher locations work better than lower locations, but wall density and range are considerations too. The best solution uses multiple WiFi "access points" wired back to a central router. Of course, the router might also contain an access point too. If you can't wire the additional access points to the router, PoE might help. Multiple wired access points are routinely used in businesses, but they have been too expensive and difficult to manage for home users.

We are beginning to see home access points using technology similar to SonosNet that allows the home user to establish a "mesh" home WiFi network. (SONOS has been doing this since inception in 2005). The new Ubiquiti AmpliFi is one such system. One starts with a central "box", adding access points until the wireless mesh covers the building. You can expect all of the major wireless vendors to jump on this train soon. Yes, the latest all powerful central wireless routers are considerably more effective than their recent predecessors, but a few walls or a marble floor will bring these super power stars to their knees. (Actually they can't offer more raw power because of safety, interference, and legal considerations, but they do use more effective transmitters and receivers)

If you like, you can mix SonosNet and PoE in the same network. Actually, you could plug additional access points into any network jack on a SonosNet system and SonosNet will share its connectivity with the access points. Note, however, SonosNet has been optimized for robust, not speed and eventually you could overwhelm SonosNet with downloads and video streaming. Until very recently I had been using a ZP90 to connect this computer at a hard to wire spot. Over the years I had zero issues, but ultimately I wanted to take full advantage of my FIOS connection speed and pulled the inconvenient wire.

I have a fairly unusual network with a mix of ethernet, wifi, and TP-LINK Powerline. I have ethernet supllying network to various access points around the property and TPLINK powerlines also provide network to other access points. Playbar and SUB connected via ethernet and PLAY:1's and PLAY:5 via Wifi. All access points have the same SSID but with a good channel separation. The PLAY:5 gets moved around a fair bit and hops between access points as needed. Never seem to get any problems with connection from controller app or anything else!

I had exactly the same problem. Not the powerline seems to be the problem but the wifi established by the powerline device. I now disabled the powerline wifi and used an airport express instead. The airport express is connected to the powerline device with ethernet cable. Since that (a few days now) I have no problems to use my sonos controller with my iPhone. Maybe it' going to help you, too.
Sonos controllers use discovery broadcasts to locate the players. Some Powerline/AP units appear to be a bit reluctant to forward such traffic between their own WiFi and the Powerline connection.

TheManOnTheBus,

Start with the same SSID ("network name") for all of the access points and try not to use the same RF channel for overlapping areas. This is the conventional wisdom for "best practice". Unfortunately, I find that "roaming" can be hit or miss, particularly for iDevices. Some devices roam better if one uses different SSID's for each access point. Although it is counter intuitive in most cases, a given collection of devices may roam better if all of the access points use the same channel. In any case, restrict your choices to channel 1, 6, or 11. Avoid using "Wide" or "40MHz" channels. Experiment and use the scheme that works best for you.

iDevices are very stubborn and refuse to give up a distant access point, even when a much better deal is available nearby. You can force the iDevice to shop around by swiping up from the bottom of a screen, turning OFF the WiFi for a second, then turning the WiFi ON again.

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There is a different approach for high end (usually called "enterprise") networking. In addition to the enterprise grade access points, there is a "controller" managing all of the access points. In this scheme the controller manages roaming. As a client moves from one coverage area to another, the controller passes the client from one access point to the next. This is seamless for the user. Unfortunately, the cost for this level of performance is out of the comfort zone for most home users.

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If you wire a SONOS unit into an EoP (Ethernet over Powerline) device, SONOS will use this path for all data -- music and control. If the EoP device is struggling with its own connectivity, the issue is physical and not something that SONOS can fix in firmware. (It is really a variant of a "defective network cable")

pknowq,

Yes, this painless scheme works, but at some point one can swamp the SonosNet with non audio traffic. Careful use of this facility can work miracles. While I'm not supporting a WiFi access point here, I'm typing through a wireless CONNECT because my computer is sitting in a hard to wire spot.

Graham_7,

Power lines were designed over a century ago to supply 50Hz or 60Hz energy for lights, appliances, and industry. There was no anticipation of a future attempt to stuff music and video onto these wires too. Using some very sophisticated technology, we can superimpose a high frequency "carrier" on the power lines to facilitate sending some data over the power wiring, but this is a very fragile situation because, to some extent power wiring picks-up stray radio and TV transmissions and this can cause interference with electronic devices such as TV's, radios, and computers. To mitigate this interference we install filters to strip this stray high frequency energy from our power lines. This is a touted feature of all of the up scale surge suppressors -- resulting in better audio and TV and more robust computing.

On one had we are stuffing a high frequency carrier on to the power lines, but "best practices" suggest that we should strip all high frequency information from the power lines. Even if we don't explicitly strip the carrier, large appliances such as microwave ovens, furnaces, and air conditioners tend to absorb the carrier -- unless they have been specifically designed not to do this.

Bottom line, transmitting audio, video, and data over power lines is hit or miss and very much depends on the local situation. Some users report success while others report frustration. Further, a working situation could be disrupted after the installation of a new appliance as simple as a modular power supply. Personally, I would not design a system to rely on EoP (Ethernet over Power Line), but EoP is worth a try in situations that are too hostile for WiFi or SonosNet wireless and pulling Ethernet cables is not practical. Sometimes EoP is a miracle, mostly it is a frustrating waste of time.

I think you're missing the point. Sonos can't update software to fix an inherent problem caused by some models of Powerline adapter blocking certain types of network traffic. I should point out that Sonos uses standard UPnP procedures to locate the Players; it's those Powerline units which aren't standards compliant.