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Need Home WiFi + Hardwired with NO SonosNet

  • 11 September 2022
  • 21 replies
  • 689 views
B
Badge +2

I have had a few forum discussions ongoing.  Short summary is that SonosNet doesn’t work for me because playing an Apple Music song everywhere (9 zones over ~21 nodes) just crumbles.  Totally unusable.  When I use home wifi mode, music plays great but HDMI live sources are unusable.

There really needs to be a setting to forcefully disable SonosNet.  When I use a hybrid approach with some devices plugged into Ethernet and wifi on, the system always switches back to SonosNet.  The problem is, to take one example, my Amp.  It pushes live audio sources out to other zones, but has to do a minimum of 2 hops.  Once to Orbi over home wifi, and then again to the other speaker.  If not a third hop over the wireless backhaul.  This makes no sense at all.  Why can’t Amp push its data out over Ethernet and avoid the first slow/unnecessary hop?

Or if SonosNet mesh could interoperate with a mesh WiFi system without making the network unstable, that would work too.  I’m bringing this up because I still don’t have a satisfactory system configuration.  Some kind of hybrid approach between the two would allow for both needs to work properly.

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21 replies

B
Badge +2

Important additional note: surrounds/sub cannot connect to Home WiFi, correct?  They have to be direct to the source (Amp).  If they could use home wifi then I could plug Amp in and turn its wifi off.  This is always traumatic because when I do, everything switches over to SonosNet before I get wifi disabled, and it takes unplugging every device often to get it to go back to Home WiFi.

ratty

I think we've explained everything on your other threads, in considerable detail. You might care to go over them again. 

N
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

I think we've explained everything on your other threads, in considerable detail. You might care to go over them again. 


But just in case it needs repeating… check the replies in your other threads on this subject. 

Ken_Griffiths

@benn600, 

The issue mentioned mostly only arises with HT devices, because if you cable standalone, or paired, sonos devices, then their WiFi adapters can be disabled to stop them using/initiating a wireless SonosNet signal. A Sonos Home theatre setup however, would need every device in its bonded setup wired (ideally back to the same switch/router) and that’s usually impractical for many folk, otherwise the surrounds and sub need the (normal) ad-hoc 5Ghz WiFi connection between themselves and the master device… it’s not good practice to wire a surround in most cases and I would not personally recommend that, it also defeats why we each choose to buy a wireless multi-room audio system in the first place. 

I still remain surprised that you were not able to use your reasonably sized Sonos system in Sonosnet mode with your Boost (or some other Sonos product) only wired to your router, with no devices wired to your Orbi satellite hubs, or that you could not get your setup to run entirely on your Orbi WiFi signal whilst set in bridged (access point) mode, which is the type of setup I currently use with my Plume mesh WiFi-5 (4 hubs) and an ISP provided router.

It almost makes me think that something else might possibly be amiss elsewhere, within your local wired/wireless network setup. Are you sure you have carefully followed all the suggested points highlighted in your other threads by @ratty and the others?

B
Badge +2

Yeah I’ve looked at them.  What I will try next is unplugging Orbi so there is no other wifi at all.  Then I’ll run Sonos in SonosNet with one device plugged in and nothing else.

I mean yeah it’s fun to repeat that we’ve shared all the suggestions possible, but it still is disappointing when neither configuration option works fully.  They are all mediocre at best and do not deliver on the promise of reliable multi-room audio everywhere.

Everyone talks about WiFi and what mode my WiFi is in, etc., but why does that matter?  Why does it matter if my WiFi is in bridge mode?  I have a separate DHCP server and my WiFi access point does not handle internet routing either.  I feel like everything gets dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and you’re also assuming that a person has WiFi.  So if I take that out of the mix, then we can just eliminate that.

I just have to psych myself up because switching back and forth between modes is traumatizing and often requires me throwing my breaker panel a couple of times to get everything to restart, not to mention the time required to make the hardware adjustments necessary.  But I’ll give it a go because so far, nothing has worked reliably.

And you are all telling me that if you stream an apple music song to all zones (with every mobile zone powered on) that you hear the first chord, and it plays continuously everywhere with no issues.  Then when you randomly pick a new song, it also starts playing within a few seconds, hearing the first chord, and no drop outs?  And you can stream your home theater movie source to all zones, also, with 99%+ reliability?  I’m reasonable and can live with hopefully less than 1% drop outs on this because I know the timeliness of getting all the packets everywhere.

The funny thing, though, is that my primary node that will be plugged in does actually get a strong signal to every other speaker.  Green and rarely flashing yellow in the status page.  So this really shouldn’t be that complicated.  No double hops for anything.

B
Badge +2

Nobody has told me yet, what I need to order on Amazon to do wireless interference testing?  I don’t care what it costs, just tell me what will answer this question so that can be eliminated -- as it was a bullet point on all of your helpful lists.

jgatie

@benn600, i have to ask:  Why do you keep asking for our help, then questioning the help you are given?  Either take the help as offered, or go do your own thing.  Either way, stop wasting our time with your nonsense.

 

Moderator Note: Modified in accordance with the Community Code of Conduct.

B
Badge +2

What have I not tried that was suggested?  I followed every numeric list that was provided in my 4 threads and went down each path that was suggested.  Are there no more suggestions?  Repeatedly I was told that if it doesn’t work then there is just too much wireless interference.  So I ask how do I confirm this is the cause?  People seem to be dodging the tough questions.  Is it possible that I’m just asking too much of the system?  Everyone says my system isn’t that large — okay so tell me how large your system is and how reliable it is?  And not 32 Amps in a rack mount all connected via Ethernet.  I’m talking mostly/all wireless.  Everyone is conveniently glossing over the challenging questions and saying I’m not willing to try what was suggested.  The 5-10 bullet point lists provided to me?  Yeah, I went through them meticulously one-by-one.

The first thing I did 2 months ago was unplug every Ethernet cable and go fully wireless SonosNet with tech support — long before I joined the forum.  It was laughably unusable.  And no it wasn’t on the same channel as my wifi.

But still, I’m seeking a solution with or without everyone’s help.  Just because you’re disgruntled, losing it, ego-bruised, and out of ideas doesn’t mean there isn’t a solution out there.  I switched to Sonos 5 years ago because a competitor product wasn’t delivering.  They have taken leaps and bounds since then, so another diagnostic step I should take is building out my system with their hardware.  If Sonos just can’t deliver on this baseline of expectation.

jgatie

More proof you don't listen?  There's no such thing as "fully wireless Sonosnet". 🙄  

And it's not my ego that is the problem here.  Not by a longshot.  But hey, why not insult the people you want to help you?  Seems like a real productive approach.

PS - I could get you running fine in about a half hour or so, but I don't help people who throw abuse on me.  I'm kind of funny like that.  As a matter of fact, I suggest all the regulars should stop putting up with your insults and simply stop helping you.

 

B
Badge +2

“Fully wireless SonosNet” means that I have a Beam and Sub both plugged into the same 8-port switch.  I asked why on earth these can’t communicate over Ethernet?  Even massive rack mount installs have a dozen Amps all hardwired.  But they’re all somehow allowed and authorized.  But not me!  I did what some of you suggested and unplugged the Sub so everything was headless with only one device plugged into my router.

I followed every piece of advice and went down every diagnostic step.  It still doesn’t work.  So I ask basic questions like someone give me an anecdotal example of anything close to my setup working and I just hear radio silence.  I don’t think most people hit play everywhere in large installs.  This all works fine for 2-4 zones.  It’s setup as it should be, but crumbles.  Some bandwidth limitation somewhere is getting exceeded.

I really do enjoy the humble brag of “getting it up and running in a half hour” when I followed tech support, forum, and random guesses through to the end to no avail.  I don’t expect any help from you or anyone.  I spent years of my life in the J River forums a decade ago.  I know the balance of going deep on a topic with someone.  But if you don’t have anything useful to offer, you can stay radio silent.  If you don’t or choose to not have anything useful to add, then please just don’t.

N
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

I share @jgatie‘s frustration with you and your attitude and response to suggestions. You ask again for “anecdotal” examples of large systems, which was given by @Ken_Griffiths in this thread you started

He is a long-standing contributor to these forums. I see no reason to believe his claim is merely anecdotal: his is a large, real world system, running reliably. 

You say you follow advice but often your posts are misleading, which adds to the frustration of those offering advice. For example in your post above, where you first claim to run a “Fully wireless SonosNet system” and then “correct” your statement when challenged, is but one such example. 

I shall continue to read your threads, at least for a while, for their entertainment value. But I’ll join @jgatie and contribute no more. But good luck with resolving your system issues. Or not, which I’m starting to think is what you really want! 

M
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

I will try next is unplugging Orbi so there is no other wifi at all.  Then I’ll run Sonos in SonosNet with one device plugged in and nothing else.

 

I don't get why you want to try more SonosNet? Sounds to me like a waste of time. Haven't you found out already that it doesn't work for you? Or is this some kind of a recreational thing I don't understand?

Imho your Orbis should outperform it, even more so when all orbi satellites are hard wired to your main orbi. I get your home cinema situation. Wire your complete home cinema system with Ethernet and disable wifi on each Sonos product or do not wire the home cinema room at all to avoid SonosNet.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
B
Badge +2

Yes, but isn’t the whole point of Sonos to get wireless? I mean honestly.  Admittedly I was more seeking networked audio, since everything that can be networked must be (lighting, locks, printers, security).

I’m merely searching for a config that will handle all usage cases, that’s all, nothing more.  Orbi gracefully handles a lossy audio file and every node plays flawlessly.  But hdmi sources do 2-3 wireless hops, so no wonder it cuts out.  SonosNet would solve the extra hops.

All my clarification is to reiterate Yes, I have done all that was suggested.  It does not work.  I found a $650 wireless spectrum analyzer that I probably need to buy or rent to analyze my wireless.  All the suggestions by everyone have not worked.  So I’m basically still on my own.  The one that made a big impact, as obvious as it seems, was changing the wireless channel.  After a fresh resetup of Orbi and Sonos I think they happened to pick conflicting channels.  Switching away helped tremendously, other than that I’m just spinning my wheels trying to get something satisfactory.

it all works fine to a few zones, but add a few more and it crumbles.  What is the actual SonosNet capacity?  32 Sonos One’s spaced 3’ apart in a star pattern will play famously?  Has anyone tried this?

the large system guy: how many nodes are wireless and wired?  Does he play Apple Music randomly selecting tracks flawlessly as I described?  Hdmi sources near flawlessly?  To 10 rooms (most with stereo pairs)?

There are literally two modes.  This system is so simple there really aren’t many nobs to turn.  So it’s no wonder we have generally run out of ideas.

jgatie

I really do enjoy the humble brag of “getting it up and running in a half hour” when I followed tech support, forum, and random guesses through to the end to no avail. 

 

Oh sonny, I’ve been around way too long to “humble brag”.  I assure you, it was a full on brag, nothing humble about it.

 

 But if you don’t have anything useful to offer, you can stay radio silent.  If you don’t or choose to not have anything useful to add, then please just don’t.

 

I’m sorry, you seem to be under the impression that you make the rules on posting.  Nothing can be further from the truth.  Anyone can post what they want, where they want, when they want, as long as they don’t violate the TOS.  

N
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

 

the large system guy: how many nodes are wireless and wired?  Does he play Apple Music randomly selecting tracks flawlessly as I described?  Hdmi sources near flawlessly?  To 10 rooms (most with stereo pairs)?

 

So it’s no wonder we have generally run out of ideas.


Did you look at your lengthy and repetitive thread I referenced above? The “large system guy”, as you call him, described his setup, and how he could change and reconfigure it to work in different modes. 
 

I don’t think “we” have run out of ideas. I think we’ve just grown tired of repeating them to someone that doesn’t seem to want to listen to and then implement the advice they’re given. You claim to have done so: frankly, I doubt that. I await your next, probably as verbose as ever, post in anticipation of the entertainment it will surely provide. 

M
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

All my clarification is to reiterate Yes, I have done all that was suggested.  It does not work.  I found a $650 wireless spectrum analyzer that I probably need to buy or rent to analyze my wireless. 

 

Sounds like a lot of money for this kind of fun. Every iOS/Android device can scan 2.4ghz. The band is limited and there are only three channels you can choose….

Better spend that money on wiring your AccesPoints or wiring your Amp Satellites or just live with it. You could even try powerline sockets (personally I don't think they are worth the money).

 

For TV Audio there will be always delay in groups. If TV audio is your only problem increase the buffer. From the  Settings tab, tap System, then tap your home theater product. In the Home Theater section, tap Group Audio Delay and then choose max delay.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

 

Sounds like a lot of money for this kind of fun. Every iOS/Android device can scan 2.4ghz. The band is limited and there are only three channels you can choose….

I’m not an Android expert by any means but I sure can’t find an RF scanner for my Android devices. I can find a lot of WiFi scanners but they don’t even find the Sonos 2.4 GHz signal, much less other non-WiFi 2.4 GHz RF sources.

Can you please post any Apps you have found, I and others could really use them when picking our Sonos WiFi channels.

My Ubiquity WiFi does have an RF scanner that is nice but using it also takes down my WiFi for about five minutes per scan as it can’t do both at once. If nothing else the Controller and AP option from Ubiquity is a lot less than $650.

B
Badge +2

I have yet to find any deep RF analyzer apps for any mobile phone.  I think you need specialized hardware because the wifi hardware doesn’t expose deeper analysis data of the frequencies than that.

Yes, I’m aware of a delay between live sources.  Totally understandable, you can’t beat physics.  What I’m not okay with is drop outs.  Or how when I add my kitchen (which is 2 Sonos One’s) it takes a solid minute for the right channel to start emitting any audio.  This is in the so-called “Wired” configuration using Home WiFi as the hop.

And it’s great to see that we have people involved who are deliberately trying to make things more difficult on purpose.  Nice work.  We need more mess and conflict in the world.  Slow clap.

M
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

 

Sounds like a lot of money for this kind of fun. Every iOS/Android device can scan 2.4ghz. The band is limited and there are only three channels you can choose….

I’m not an Android expert by any means but I sure can’t find an RF scanner for my Android devices. I can find a lot of WiFi scanners but they don’t even find the Sonos 2.4 GHz signal, much less other non-WiFi 2.4 GHz RF sources.

Can you please post any Apps you have found, I and others could really use them when picking our Sonos WiFi channels.

My Ubiquity WiFi does have an RF scanner that is nice but using it also takes down my WiFi for about five minutes per scan as it can’t do both at once. If nothing else the Controller and AP option from Ubiquity is a lot less than $650.

 

Okok I get it you want to analyze with pro tools. Go for it. I don't know of any secret RF scanner apps. I was talking about simple wifi scanners. The ubiquiti app works for me and I am aware it does not show everything.

Still I maintain if you want to fix wifi issues the money could be better spent, don't you think?
 

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
B
Badge +2

Nobody has suggested anything that I haven’t tried, 2 or 3 times each, combined in different permutations.  So I am conceding the possibility that I do have excessive wireless interference.  I noticed that from the recent Apple updates my 2 hardwired Apple TV’s (which were going to Orbi’s backhaul) took about 15 minutes to update while my wireless Apple TV took about 2 hours.  Anecdotal at best, but they were all 3 running at the same time.  Yes the wireless unit is also the oldest, but they’re all relatively close.  1080p, 4K, 4K Gen 2.  How is anyone ruling out wireless interference without doing spectrum analysis of the RF?  You have no idea which networks are heavily or lightly used.  The product I found grades your space A-F.  If that’s the culprit, then sure and that just means I need to move to have fewer neighbors, or identify what is causing so much interference.  If/when I move I will likely have more options to run Ethernet.  If I hadn’t expanded my system so much I wouldn’t be exceeding its capacity.

I do have almost 100 IOT devices (including lighting) so maybe I can dive in on one of those items.  At this point the ball is in my court to dig deeper and try to identify the root cause.  I had put this “lack of capacity” issue to rest years ago, every year or so, because there just isn’t a resolution and digging in deeper in each area of focus is half a day.  I already burned days on this project.  At least now my network isn’t destroyed, so I can live with the capacity that does work, until I muster up the time and energy to try another experiment.

Annoyingly, the product that I found only does 2.4 / 5 GHz spectrum.  If it also did 6 GHz I’d probably pick one up.  Just too bad that it’s already obsolete.

B
Badge +2

Hey, it’s me.  I’m back!  So I watched the Era Q&A session.  It doesn’t support SonosNet!  So all my pleading and begging and being told I’m crazy for trying to forcefully cancel SonosNet.  Sonos is doing it finally!

Well I moved and now have over 4,500 square feet of space (not including exterior).  Yeah, SonosNet laughably crumbles on the size and configuration of my floor plan.  I also added a few more speakers (28 total I think now).  I need a few more but am holding off until I can get everything to work reliably.

It seems like the way to forcefully disable SonosNet, and get every speaker to connect to my Orbi mesh Wi-Fi is to ensure that every device plugged into Ethernet does NOT have Wi-Fi on (yes, plugged into Satellites too!).  Which funny enough, Era speakers do this AUTOMATICALLY.  So what I was doing manually over and over is finally the brand standard/norm.  I can’t tell if this is creating problems or not, I still occasionally get lost packets/connectivity issues to one of my 5 Philips Hue bridges or other devices.  Or only see some speakers while standing near certain Orbi nodes.  Really weird.  But definitely not as serious as it was with SonosNet going in parallel to my mesh network.  It seems when SonosNet is destroyed, then it isn’t really a “mesh” anymore.  It just lets regular network requests route per routing mechanisms.

But yeah, they said it in the Q&A.  Modern Wi-Fi networks are fantastic if you get a good system.  And yeah, I can play a song on several rooms at once and it start at the same moment (hear the first chord), with volume changes very quickly executing and almost in sync with every room.  That’s the holy grail that has been unattainable.  Oh, and I barely have any other people/networks nearby so no more claiming network interference lol.

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